Future of Zettelkasten - Version 4 and beyond

[Elmari]

(This is a continuation of discussion #408. Feature proposals are based on tickets #197, #207, #224)

Initial situation: The code base of Zettelkasten 3 has become very old and is based on libraries that are partly 12 years old. Due to this and other problems, the code is poorly maintainable.

Idea: The idea is to maintain the current version and fix major bugs. In addition, a version 4 is to be rebuilt from scratch. The functionality of this version will be based on the current and proven version 3, but it will be technologically up to date.

Proposed changes / features for version 4:

• Instead of providing a single jar, installers should be provided that bundle the JRE required to run Zettelkasten. By having the JRE bundled, the program should feel like any other program to the user. The user should no longer have to worry about specific Java versions (Bundle JRE with Zettelkasten #207, Pakete für Linux-Distros #213). The jre can be built with jlink and the installers get created with jpackage.
• Markdown will be the only format supported by Zettelkasten, ubb can be imported but will not be supported anymore when writing new zettels (independent of the database structure) (Only support markdown in future releases? #224).
• Importing data from version 3 should be possible to be able to migrate data from the old to the new version as easily as possible
• Inititally, I think, we should focus on the necessary features to get version 4 starting, that means features like switching between different themes should only be added at a later time

Technical proposals:

• We should write tests early on and enforce this when approving PRs (see Does the Zettelkasten ZKN3 Go on? #408)
• We should use features of the latest LTS java version (at the time of writing this JDK 17) in order to write concise, modern and readable code (see Does the Zettelkasten ZKN3 Go on? #408 and Bundle JRE with Zettelkasten #207)
• I suggest we use JavaFX as the desktop application framework. Besides partial performance improvements, JavaFX offers better support for web technologies and has a more modern code base. (see Weiterentwicklung des Zettelkastens #197)
• We should use a solution for Dependency injection in order to again write concise code and decrease coupling (for example Spring). (see Does the Zettelkasten ZKN3 Go on? #408 and also https://spring.io/blog/2019/01/16/spring-tips-javafx, https://rgielen.net/posts/2019/creating-a-spring-boot-javafx-application-with-fxweaver/)

What I'm not yet sure about is what database we should use. I guess we could stay with the current solution of using xml files. Another, maybe more scalable solution would be to use embedded databases (like sqlite or h2) on a per Zettelkasten base. By doing this, we could reduce the number of xml files that are currently zipped in a zkn3 file to one file.

I'm looking forward to your feedback. Feel free to add things that I forgot or to mention that you have a different opinion about.

[RalfBarkow]

@Elmari

• Dependency injection

See FxmlView.

[Elmari]

Sounds good to me. Do you have any preference regarding spring or guice? Personally, I have had good experiences with spring boot

[RalfBarkow]

@Elmari Yes, I don't see the need to use anything other than FxmlView at the moment.

[Elmari]

Hm, then I have the impression that we are talking at cross purposes. I do think that Dependency Injection would have some advantages for us, which are not covered by a superclass with utility functions. Why do you think we don't need it? Or did I misunderstand you?

[RalfBarkow]

@Elmari

database

An alternative would be to serialize the domain level objects as JSON files.

[RalfBarkow]

Yes, the "Double Bracketed Internal Link" concept.

[RalfBarkow]

You might think about making those relationships first-class citizens.

[mateusbraga]

Here are some thoughts:

I have noticed two approaches for database of notes:

• Text files with special syntax, like an extension to Markdown. The notetaking software needs the directory with these files and edit them there. I think @RalfBarkow is referring to this. (Please correct me if I am wrong)
• Bundled file. This is like ZKN3 now: a zip file with .xml inside. The notetaking software needs the location of the database file.

I never thought of manually openning the files outside ZKN, so I am OK with bundled file. As long as it has 'Export to other format'.

I think the development of the special syntax can be troublesome (ZKN notes has many different types of metadata) and might not satisfy everyone that wants the notes in plaintext. So if that doesn't seem a strong requirement at this point, I think an embedded database a safer choice.

[RalfBarkow]

@mateusbraga @Elmari Feel free to implement whatever you want, but don't store any object pointers, only UIDs.

Cf. the JSON Schema of Federated Wiki:

… and a mixture of paragraph and code snippets:

… and finally a mixture of video and markdown snippets:

[Elmari]

Yes, UIDs would be the way to go, I think they are pretty standard to use when it comes to referencing.
Additionally, the pointer concept does not exist in java (like it does, for example, in C, if you mean that) and as they are pointing to a memory address, they are not persistent.

[RalfBarkow]

@Elmari

• jpackage

To package Java applications in native Windows, Mac OS X or GNU/Linux executables, and generate installers for them, I would recommend JavaPackager.

[Elmari]

Sounds like a nice project. Although I do wonder if it may be safer to use the official command line tool (jpackage) instead of a custom solution for building the installers. But maybe it's fine.
For creating the jre the lib uses jlink under the hood, so no further "magic" here.

[RalfBarkow]

@Elmari I don't care. Feel free to use jpackage or whatever you like.

[Elmari]

Alright then ...

[Elmari]

Just to be clear, I didn't mean that we definitely shouldn't use it. As I meant, the project sounds good and also seems to be updated regularly. Just wanted to mention that since Java 14 (I think) there is also an official solution. That could be discussed.

[sOER-Frank]

How about a Patreon account and a call on the ZKN3 site and social media or something?

[alucasf]

Option to use the app in mobile devices?

Able to store the Zettelkasten folders on the cloud like iCloud

[CaptainBasil]

How about a Patreon account and a call on the ZKN3 site and social media or something?

FWIW, I'll pledge 100 € if that helps keeping Zettelkasten alive (or reviving it).

[CaptainBasil]

Able to store the Zettelkasten folders on the cloud like iCloud

I don't know whether that helps, but I use Zettelkasten on Dropbox so I can use it on multiple desktop computers or notebooks.

[alucasf]

Hi, CaptainBasil.

I tried again setting up syncing iCloud and YES IT IS POSSIBLE. Thank you!
This offers me peace of mind knowing that does not depend on the the fiscal device and don't need to do Time Machine as often.

I think increasing publicity would be a great way to finance and get more people on the project to give it a little push.
For example, the app Obsidian has big community and many updates, plug ins and so on...

For me, I would suggest the intention to make it work on mobile devices (Android and iOS) to the suggestions of @Elmari

[CaptainBasil]

I'd be happy to see any kind of feature that keeps the project alive. Seeing the development of comments on github, however, my current impression is that it's a relatively small community, maybe too small for a critical mass?

[CaptainBasil]

Hi @Elmari , do you still intend to continue the project? If not, what alternative do you use?

[Elmari]

Thanks for the clarification! I'll give it a try.

At first glance (and after a short search via the Obsidian help which linked into a forum post about zkn import), I assume that the usage of the bibliography will be messed up, the Zettel sequences won't work and the tags at least won't work as I used them, but I'll do more research on all that.

Regarding bibliography: that depends on how you managed your bibliography. If you used some kind of citation manager, then there are plugins for Obsidian that support that.

It's also possible to create references to other zettels / notes with the internal link ( [[...]]). If you had a desktop when using zettelkasten this can be replaced by creating a note that acts as a desktop zettel which embeds the zettel via ![[...]].

The tags can be migrated via a script like I mentioned before. Maybe the repo may be helpful after all even though there is not much to it.

But all in all, there is definitely a bit of a learning curve and an initial effort to migrate everything.

[Der-Alte-Fritz]

I have added a blog post on migrating to Markdown programmes, specifically Obsidian and Zettlr for Windows
https://www.hgwdavie.com/blog/2024/9/16/zettelkasten-zkn3-english-language-manual-part-3-doomsday-planning
and another on how Markdown is handled in Zkn3 when enabling it in the preferences screen
https://www.hgwdavie.com/blog/2024/9/27/zettelkasten-zkn3-english-language-manual-part-5-activating-markdown

However I have to say that I shall continue with Zkn3 as my main zettelkasten until it fails to work and will happily contribute and pay towards its upkeep. To my mind it is easy to use, very intuative and I recommend that my students have a look at it as well.

The reason for the above migration exerecise is that every so often, I copy my Zkn3 files and then 'convert' them to Markdown format and export them as individual Markdown files. I tend to purpose them more for Zettlr which seems a smoother implementation than Obsidian. This exercise is purely a backup in case Zkn3 should fail at some point. But every time I do it I learn a little more or add some further script.

I find myself adding more and more technique to my Zkn3 knowledge (which is recorded in my blog) and I really could not bear to have to move elsewhere.

[alucasf]

Thank you very much for the effort, I tried and I could move the Keywords with success!

I am a MacOs user so, the part of the links couldn't follow because there is no App Notepad++, is there an equivalent I could use for Mac?

Also another conversation that I would like to propose is that, Zkn3 has everything to do a Zettelkasten, everything is already organized and the user does not need to figure out how to organize for example as Obsidian requires.
With the revolution of Zettelkasten with the book of Zone Ahrens... seems that most aficionados went to Obsidian and have a big community.

I would like to propose that we coordinate to promote zkn3 and acquire more volunteer developers so the project keeps going.

Zkn3 has everything ready for Zettelkasten, but most people doesn't know. I feel that if it could be used on phone devices and done some fix of small issues, it would be a very Wellcome product

[Der-Alte-Fritz]

Notepad++ is a very simple Markdown editor, and so I am sure that there must be Mac equivalent Markdown editors (https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/mac-markdown-editors/)

[Carruther]

I completely agree with Der-alte-Fritz: I couldn’t imagine switching to, say, Obsidian and losing the unique features of zkn3, which create the perfect Zettelkasten without unnecessary bells and whistles that only distract and add nothing to productivity. My main concern right now is whether zkn3 will still work with Windows 11. Has anybody tried it yet and could ease my mind?

[Der-Alte-Fritz]

I am a Windows 11 user ever since it came out and it works well with Zkn3

[Carruther]

Thanks a lot, that's the best message of the day!