Discussion on Katacoda removal and possible replacement

[reylejano]

Katacoda has removed public access on June 15, 2022 (announcement)
Katacoda continued to host tutorials for kubernetes.io afte public access ceased but in December of 2022 O'Reilly communicated the intent to stop hosting tutorials for kubernetes.io.
This is GitHub discussion is about the Katacoda removal, next steps for SIG Docs, and possible replacement for Katacoda.

Kubernetes scenarios for Katacoda: https://github.com/katacoda-scenarios/kubernetes-bootcamp-scenarios

Related to issues #33936, #33918, #38785

[reylejano]

Let's state what Katacoda currently (at the time of writing this comment) provides for kubernetes.io (I'm open to suggestions and/or edits):

• Katacoda is a learning module that provided a place for folks to learn about Kubernetes with guided tutorials on kubernetes.io and Katacoda scenarios running on Katacoda's infrastructure
• Katacoda scenarios are browser-based that provided terminal access to a virtual machine where folks can access a Kubernetes cluster to learn concepts and fundamentals
• Katacoda was free and did not require a login or people to signup

[reylejano]

From Tim Bannister on the SIG Docs meeting on Jan 10, 2023: are there features that Katacoda did not offer and we should consider?

[sftim]

Our Katacoda scenarios were always in English, even in localized docs.

Example: Привіт Minikube (Hello Minikube in Ukrainian)
The page is in English but clicking the Launch Terminal button produces an English-language sandbox.

[divya-mohan0209]

Towards the end, i.e., last year, afaik, performance + slowness issues were reported with the integration. Maybe not an exact dealbreaker, but the replacement should have a support system in place, as we have for Netlify, in case of slowness issues. That leads us to a separate discussion of whether we want to go down the paid/free route.

[afbjorklund]

are there features that Katacoda did not offer and we should consider?

Katacoda offered versions of Kubernetes, that were well outside the version skew...

For the v1.26.0 release, the linked* versions of the tutorials were still using v1.20.2
* https://kubernetes.io/blog/2022/12/09/kubernetes-v1-26-release/#availability

It would have been nice, if they were at least using v1.25.3 (like minikube and kind) ?

Related to issue #37817

[afbjorklund]

Killercoda offers an environment, running a pre-installed Kubernetes cluster.

• Killercoda is a learning module that provides a place for folks to learn about Kubernetes with guided tutorials on kubernetes.io and Killercoda scenarios running on Killercoda infrastructure
• Killercoda scenarios are browser-based that provides terminal (and editor!) access to a virtual machine where folks can access a Kubernetes cluster to learn concepts and fundamentals
• Killercoda is free but does require a login or people to signup

https://killercoda.com/kubernetes

Killercoda offers migration help, from people coming from the Katacoda platform:

• https://itnext.io/katacoda-to-killercoda-migration-guide-d21961fc0c9b

---

Sample learning environment with the cluster already running, kubectl configured.

• https://killercoda.com/examples/scenario/kubernetes-1node

Note: Killercoda does not offer a pre-installed minikube (or kind), only ubuntu.

• https://killercoda.com/examples/scenario/ubuntu-simple

So the "hello-minikube" or "create-cluster" scenarios, won't work out-of-the-box.
(it would be possible to document them "from scratch", if one really really wanted to)

The images come with both docker and podman running, as well as the theia editor.

One bonus feature is that they offer 2 node clusters, for more advanced scenarios.
This is compensated by each node having 1 vCPU, instead of 2 vCPU like Katacoda.

Currently it is not possible to replicate the Killercoda node setup "at home" (offline).

[kundan2707]

one related update has been done here
#39190

[marcosnils]

👋 play-with-kubernetes (https://labs.play-with-k8s.com/) maintainer here. I few months ago (#34007) I brought the same topic to this group when the initial Katakoda announcement was made and the community seemed interested in evaluating the alternative of using an "open source" proved (it's already in the kubernetes docs) solution. The main reason why we decided not to move forward was because Katakoda / O'Reilly decided to keep supporting the kubernetes tutorials. Now that has come to an end.

I'm happy to resume those conversations if there's interest in bringing this topic back to the table. I'm really hoping for an open source alternative to be chosen this time so this doesn't happen again 🙏

[afbjorklund]

You can't have an image with a cluster already running

It was a feature of the killercoda images, which uses VMs.

I suppose it could also happen, if using some cloud provider for the basic tutorials. And they set up the k8s cluster for you ?
For minikube there is the "pause" feature, but that would only work the second time - the first time it needs bootstrapping.

[marcosnils]

It was a feature of the killercoda images, which uses VMs.

right, PWK uses containes since multiple user sessions can run in the same machine which brings costs down considerably. I'm aware that katakoda and killerkoda have a small pool of "warm" VMs, but very soon you hit that limit and they make you wait until the new VM is provisioned which I think it hurts the DX more.

[afbjorklund]

What is DX ?

[marcosnils]

Developer Experience. Having a loading spinner saying "Your environment will be ready shortly" is not as friendly as seeing in the actual terminal how the cluster is being bootstrapped.

[afbjorklund]

I am a bit concerned about using legacy distributions like CentOS 7 and legacy platforms like Docker Swarm for this.

[marcosnils]

@reylejano @sftim any updates about this? Is there any interest from the docs SIG or the k8s project to provide a replacement for katadacoda? I'd personally love to see something, and I currently have bandwidth and willingness to help here.

[afbjorklund]

As far as I know, the Kubernetes 1.20 online tutorials will be shut down in three weeks...
https://kubernetes.io/blog/2023/02/14/kubernetes-katacoda-tutorials-stop-from-2023-03-31/

Possibly the contents will be "rescued", to avoid broken Katacoda links and for offline usage.
e.g. https://github.com/katacoda-scenarios/kubernetes-bootcamp-scenarios/blob/master/1/

Let’s view the cluster details. We’ll do that by running *kubectl cluster-info*:

`kubectl cluster-info`{{execute}}

During this tutorial, we’ll be focusing on the command line for deploying and exploring our application.
To view the nodes in the cluster, run the *kubectl get nodes* command:

`kubectl get nodes`{{execute}}

This command shows all nodes that can be used to host our applications. Now we have only one node, and we can see that its status is ready (it is ready to accept applications for deployment). 

[afbjorklund]

So far, this path is the closest thing to keeping the scenarios going:
https://killercoda.com/kubernetes-bootcamp-scenarios/scenario/1

But it does not use minikube and the k8s installer is not open source.
So the user would have to set up their own cluster, for off-line usage...

[marcosnils]

My main concern about using killerkoda is basically repeating the same mistakes that katakoda. We never know when / if the company will keep running and from one day to the other, all effort that the community put into creating tutorials and generating content, will be basically thrown over the board.

[afbjorklund]

I think it would be nice to have an option to run the scenarios locally (offline), as well.
Currently I can run the minikube dashboard, but there are no interactive scenarios...

More traditional copy/paste to terminal:
https://minikube.sigs.k8s.io/docs/start/

[afbjorklund]

There are some browser proof-of-concepts, but nothing that is ready for deployment yet.
It needs to have the integrated authentication, and also the dynamic scenario interaction.

And there are a lot of UI bugs in minikube, to fix in the interaction with the "none" driver.
Most of them are already in the existing version (1.20), but it got even worse since 1.24...

[afbjorklund]

[sftim]

This discussion is about:

• next steps for SIG Docs given the removal of Katacoda
• possible replacement for Katacoda

Related work such as updates to those tutorials would be in scope IMO. Please try not to veer too far off topic!

[afbjorklund]

Just wondered if the content is too out of date anyway, so that is not worth just moving it to a different hosting.

[letrthang]

got backup of the tutorial here :)) :
https://pwittrock.github.io/docs/tutorials/

[darshandkd]

Apologies if this is not the right channel for my ask in advnace.

We're planning to host an offline k8s lab environment for students to test their understanding of k8s training, and for the same we're looking for offline setup to host browser based k8s scenarios where students can practice/test their understanding.

Is there any offline version of Killerkoda-like systems? If yes, would someone please help me pointing the direction?

Thank you

[darshandkd]

Thank you @marcosnils that indeed helped me with the direction. Yea, katakoda scenario isn’t a prerequisite, as we’d like to load our own scenarios.

[darshandkd]

Btw, I also came across Rancher’s HobbyFarm which seems a promising project for the objective in question.

Thank you everyone for your valuable input!

[marcosnils]

Thank you @marcosnils that indeed helped me with the direction. Yea, katakoda scenario isn’t a prerequisite, as we’d like to load our own scenarios.

Sure np! Hobbyfarm is a great project indeed but AFAIK it doesn't have the ability to run 100% offline since it requires provisioning on-demand vm's for the environment.

[pablochacin]

@marcosnils Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems that HobbyFarm's backend uses a terraform operator for provisioning the VMs, so un principle it should be possible to spin local VMs.

[darshandkd]

Thank you @marcosnils that indeed helped me with the direction. Yea, katakoda scenario isn’t a prerequisite, as we’d like to load our own scenarios.

Sure np! Hobbyfarm is a great project indeed but AFAIK it doesn't have the ability to run 100% offline since it requires provisioning on-demand vm's for the environment.

I'm yet to complete my lab setup with HobbyFarm and so far it doesn't seem straight forward, but it appears to be a complete offline setup. I'll share more once I learn more about it down the line. Thank you for the input though.

[TXH2020]

Hello everyone,
I do not know if this is according to your requirements. Sorry in advance if it isn't!
I have a software with the following features:

• Can run fully offline.
• Produce an iframed web terminal.
• Execute commands in the external(parent) page on the terminal, similar to Katacoda with a button click.
• Also retrieve the command execution status(success or failure) and execution time and display it on the parent page.
• If the command status and time features aren't required then, with very little modifications, the execute on click feature works successfully for remote machines with Windows, Linux etc. Otherwise only Linux is supported.
• I was also able to integrate the terminal in a react frontend.
• I am attaching a link to a YouTube video that demonstrates the software: link. (Watch from 5 min onwards to see the execute on click part).

[sftim]

I wonder if we could use something like https://webvm.io/ (which emulates x86 purely client side)

[marcosnils]

I think making containers work in something like webvm.io will be extremely slow since all the kernel primitives for container management (cgroups, overlay fs, namespaces, etc) will have to be emulated which IMO will have a big performance penalty and probably contains some bugs.

[marcosnils]

I've offered the docs community to use https://github.com/play-with-docker/play-with-docker the only open sourced MIT licensed project that provides a similar katacoda experience. The way I see it, there's no interest in the community currently to bring back interactive learning tutorials.

[antonioberben]

Have you considered using educates (https://github.com/vmware-tanzu-labs/educates-training-platform) which is a cloud-native training platform that checks all the requirements?

It's been developed for some years by VMware and just made open source. It's experience is like katacoda/killercoda, but much more feature-rich as it can run on a cluster giving the user only access to a namespace or a vcluster or even a VM, which reduces the cost of execution.

Check some sccreenshots (https://docs.educates.dev/project-details/sample-screenshots) or the docs at (https://docs.educates.dev)

[sftim]

We are short of volunteers to deploy and manage new infrastructure here. It's an option but Kubernetes contributors with capacity to look after the project's infrastructure are a scarce resource.

[marcosnils]

That's where the foundation can actually help by providing some budget for this? Katakoda had a budget allocated and they paid the service for quite some time.

[sftim]

Is there a service we can buy? If so, which should it be?

[marcosnils]

yep, I'd suggest checking out https://instruqt.com/. That's what Hashicorp interactive tutorials use: https://learn.hashicorp.com/

[sftim]

See #38878 (comment) for the Instruqt suggestion.

[sftim]

Copying from #38878 (reply in thread)
Suggestion by @marcosnils: use https://instruqt.com/

[sftim]

We have removed Katacoda and didn't find any significant appetite to run (or pay someone to run) an alternative that might replace it.