Have the 'output limiter' independent of the DSP

[vingerha]

The Output Limiter (currently on 240beta's) is 'on' by default and one has to activate DSP to set the limiter to 'off', even if one does not want to use DSP. Suggest to make limiter 'off' by default or remove the dependency with the DSP.

[maximmaxim345]

I'd like to keep the limiter enabled by default, but I understand your point.

The limiter should not alter the audio signal unless there are very loud sounds (that would introduce clipping).
So, in all "normal" cases, having the limiter on or off should not make any difference.

Decoupling the option from the DSP settings is unfortunately not as simple as one might hope due to grouped playback. (If one player has the limiter enabled and another has it disabled, should we limit or not?)

As an alternative, how about keeping the limiter enabled and in the DSP, but displaying an indicator in the UI if it was ever "used"?
If that warning doesn't appear, you would know that the limiter hasn't altered anything about the sound.

[vingerha]

In my opinion one should not think or decide for the end-user too much and let them decide what they want to use or not. Where I appreciate to reduce the risk, I have never had any problem with clipping in 40 years toying with audio, partially self made, and I was a bit surprised that this was added. My counter-suggestion would be then to have DSP and (!) limiter on by default... I am not unhappy to turn it off :)

[maximmaxim345]

Just looked into the limiter. It was added with version 2.3.0 (music-assistant/server#1657) with the purpose of avoiding clipping in cases where volume normalization fails, to still have an "acceptable" listening experience.

I'm also not against adding an option to disable the output limiter.
The main hurdle is how to handle this with grouped playback.
Having the DSP enabled by default (but with limiter on by default), would disable the DSP once syncing with another player (with the majority of player providers).
In that scenario the limiter would still be enabled.

But thinking again, the existing volume normalization option (in the player settings) of the group leader override the option set by all other group members.

So moving the limiter settings from the DSP to the player settings menu does indeed make sense as approach. This would allow users to:

• disable limiting on a per player basis (for single device playback)
• keep the DSP settings disabled
• allow the limiter to be kept disabled for synced playback.

And the grouping behavior would still be consistent with the normalization options.

[vingerha]

Appreciate the thinking and proposal which I like but ... just to be clear, for me this is more an improvement wrt logic/ux so let's not make this too big an issue.
My (personal) view is that it should be simple to (un)do but if not...then I am just 1 person requesting this too :)

[maximmaxim345]

No problem.
My main nitpick with the current implementation is that when grouped, the limiter can not be disabled. Moving that from the DSP would solve that and additionally make the option easier to find.

[vingerha]

Some input from the music playing side, I thought to have noticed things before but too lazy to check but now I have confirmation of a effect which I (me) believe is too soon.
Setting a Airplay device to use compression (default) and limiter on, cuts of dynamics quite quickly. I did notice this with DLNA as well
The example I now have tested (multiple times) is: Vangelis - album Chariots of Fire, last track (same name), @12:20 and a few seconds later, the pulses are being cut off quite noticeably when the limiter is on.
So: on one hand one can say it works but for me this works way too quickly as these pulses are not much imo.
Just meant as input as to why I want to have limiters etc. off :)

[maximmaxim345]

This makes a lot more sense to me now, thanks for your explanation and the example track.
I only really encountered the limiter when increasing the EQ to unhealthy levels, so I didn't see the limiter as a problem.

Could you please send me a screenshot of the volume normalization in the audio pipeline when playing that track, similar to this:

[marcelveldt]

This example is exactly why EBU actually recommends -23 LUFS as target level. Tracks with this high dynamic range are rare but they exist. The adjustment made by the volume normalization overshoots so the limiter has to kick in. Disabling the limiter in this case would have resulted in distorted audio 🤔

[marcelveldt]

Should we consider setting the limiter by default to -0,5 maybe instead of -2?

[maximmaxim345]

-0.5dB sounds like a better default.

Also, I think a clipping/limiting indicator would also be nice addition.
I have a local branch with a POC so I know that it's not too difficult to add.
So the Audio Pipeline recommends a target level the "Target level for volume normalization" setting to avoid clipping, and maybe links to a docs page.

But this something for later.

[vingerha]

Here you are, it wobbles a bit when it jumps into 'action' ... lower, back higher, lower

[maximmaxim345]

That part of the track has peaks of around 5-8dB (after volume normaization). Decrease the "Target level for volume normalization" settings to avoid clipping (and if enabled limiting), this would avoid any problems at the cost of lower volume.

So with the limiter you have volume changes (up to 10dB), without the limiter clipping (up to 8dB).

But the limiter could indeed also be tweaked to be less aggressive, since it currently targets -2dB. Maybe to around -0.5dB.
Then if its active you are definitely in clipping territory. And also tweaking the limiters speed a bit.

[vingerha]

The things is, I do not want to tweak this all the time. I have loads of tracks with even more dynamic 'action', this was just one track where I thought to review the effects. The only issues that I see is when the track / stream starts to break (not sure how to describe this better) and a loud crack/tick is heard, this happens once every 2-3 weeks and not yet sure where this comes from as I cannot reproduce it by rewinding (antique wording) the track...possibly an issue in the wiring or the NAS playing up or ...
Another example is the entry track of the Dune 2 filmscore, this has some rumbling dynamics in the first 30s which is super and should not be 'cut'
Would know of a track that can be used to set the limiter to a 'max' figure? For now, I prefer 'off' as it I cannot continuously tweak to something that in the end means: off :)

[OzGav]

Moving the Output Limiter to the player settings will probably be in the next beta music-assistant/frontend#886

[OzGav]

2.5.0b6 has been released

[vingerha]

Although a new option is visible on player level, it is still available as part of the DSP and I still need to activate the DSP to undo it. Will you remove the option from the DSP in a next release?

[maximmaxim345]

Output limiting is now completely separate from the DSP. So you can now disable the DSP entirely.
You can verify this with the Audio Pipeline.

The next beta will have the broken option in the DSP Settings removed. (music-assistant/frontend#886 is the PR that removes it. It was merged, but did not make it into 2.5.0b6)

[vingerha]

OK, closed...and thanks for the quick turn around