Database Design Original.ipynb

{
 "cells": [
  {
   "cell_type": "code",
   "execution_count": 17,
   "metadata": {},
   "outputs": [],
   "source": [
    "import pandas as pd\n",
    "import regex as re\n",
    "import numpy as np\n",
    "import os\n",
    "\n",
    "# Read in a plain text file\n",
    "with open(os.path.join(\"trial1.txt\"), \"r\") as f:\n",
    "    text = f.read()\n",
    "with open(os.path.join(\"trial2.txt\"), \"r\") as f:\n",
    "    text1= f.read()\n",
    "with open(os.path.join(\"trial3.txt\"), \"r\") as f:\n",
    "    text2= f.read()"
   ]
  },
  {
   "cell_type": "code",
   "execution_count": 11,
   "metadata": {},
   "outputs": [
    {
     "name": "stdout",
     "output_type": "stream",
     "text": [
      "﻿SUPREME COURT\n",
      "\n",
      "OF THE UNITED STATES\n",
      "\n",
      "IN THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES\n",
      "\n",
      "- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - WISCONSIN CENTRAL LTD., ET AL.,\n",
      "\n",
      ")\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Petitioners,\n",
      "v. \t\n",
      "\n",
      ")\n",
      "\n",
      ") No. 17-530\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "UNITED STATES, \t\n",
      "\n",
      ")\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Respondent.\n",
      "\n",
      ")\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -\n",
      "\n",
      "Pages:\n",
      "\n",
      "1 through 58\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Place:\n",
      "\n",
      "Washington, D.C.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Date:\n",
      "\n",
      "April 16, 2018\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION\n",
      "Official Reporters\n",
      "1220 L Street, N.W., Suite 206\n",
      "Washington, D.C. 20005\n",
      "(202) 628-4888\n",
      "www.hrccourtreporters.com\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "IN THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "WISCONSIN CENTRAL LTD., ET AL.,\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "Petitioners,\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "v.\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "UNITED STATES,\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      ")\n",
      ") No. 17-530\n",
      ")\n",
      "\n",
      "Respondent.\n",
      "\n",
      ")\n",
      "\n",
      "- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      ")\n",
      "\n",
      "Washington, D.C.\n",
      "\n",
      "Monday, April 16, 2018\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "The above-entitled matter came on for oral\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "argument before the Supreme Court of the United\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "States at 10:05 a.m.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "APPEARANCES:\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "THOMAS H. DUPREE, JR., ESQ., Washington, D.C.; on\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "behalf of the Petitioners.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "RACHEL P. KOVNER, Assistant to the Solicitor General,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "Department of Justice, Washington, D.C.; on\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "behalf of the Respondent.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "23\n",
      "24\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "C O N T E N T S\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "ORAL ARGUMENT OF:\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "THOMAS H. DUPREE, JR., ESQ.\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "On behalf of the Petitioners\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "ORAL ARGUMENT OF:\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "RACHEL P. KOVNER, ESQ.\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "On behalf of the Respondent\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF:\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "THOMAS H. DUPREE, ESQ.\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "On behalf of the Petitioners\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "12\n",
      "13\n",
      "14\n",
      "15\n",
      "16\n",
      "17\n",
      "18\n",
      "19\n",
      "20\n",
      "21\n",
      "22\n",
      "23\n",
      "24\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "PAGE:\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "30\n",
      "\n",
      "56\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "P R O C E E D I N G S\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "(10:05 a.m.)\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS:\n",
      "\n",
      "We'll hear\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "argument first this morning in Case 17-530,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "Wisconsin Central versus the United States.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "Mr. Dupree.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "ORAL ARGUMENT OF THOMAS H. DUPREE, JR.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONERS\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "Mr. Chief Justice, and\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "may it please the Court:\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "The Railroad Retirement Tax Act levies\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "a payroll tax on railroad employees' money\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "remuneration.\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "case is whether remuneration in shares of stock\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "is remuneration in money.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "The question presented in this\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "We believe it is not for a simple\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "reason.\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "of \"money\" is a generally accepted medium of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "exchange.\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "buy -­\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "Stock is not money.\n",
      "\n",
      "The plain meaning\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "And stock is not that.\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KENNEDY:\n",
      "\n",
      "You can't\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "How about -- how\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "about a check?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "We think a check would\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "constitute a medium of exchange, Justice\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "Kennedy.\n",
      "\n",
      "It -- it essentially transfers\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "currency.\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "currency on a bank draft, so we do think that a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "check would constitute money remuneration.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "There is a legal right to obtain\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KENNEDY:\n",
      "\n",
      "slippery slope about that -- at that point?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KENNEDY:\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "So you end the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Well -­\n",
      "What about a bond, a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "U.S. savings bond?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "That would not be, Your\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "Honor.\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "money remuneration.\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "would constitute money remuneration obviously\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "would be cash, paper notes, coins, but it would\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "also encompass more modern ways of transferring\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "currency, such as direct deposit or a check.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "We don't think a bond would constitute\n",
      "\n",
      "Typically, the things that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "We think that the plain meaning of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "money remuneration is also confirmed when this\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "tax provision is viewed in the larger context\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "of the tax code as a whole, and that's true\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "both for the tax code as it existed during the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "Great Depression, when this railroad statute\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "was enacted, and also the code as it exists\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "today.\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "The code -­\n",
      "JUSTICE GINSBURG:\n",
      "\n",
      "Mr. Dupree, wasn't\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "it -- wasn't it so that when the Act was\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "enacted, compensation was in money, but over\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "time, compensation in the form of stock has\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "become more frequent.\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "purpose.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "And it serves the same\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "So why can't one read \"any form of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "monetary compensation\" to include any form of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "compensation readily convertible into cash?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "Well, Justice Ginsburg,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "what the historical record shows is that at the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "time of the Great Depression, when the statute\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "was enacted, railroad employees were actually\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "compensated through a variety of means, both\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "cash-based and also non-cash-based.\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "gave their employees everything from in-kind\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "benefits, free transportation, property.\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "so that same issue that presents itself today,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "where railroad employees get a variety of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "different types and forms of remuneration, also\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "existed back in the Great Depression.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "Railroads\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "And\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "And what Congress did was it said we\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "recognize that railroad employees get a variety\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "of types of remuneration, including stock, by\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "the way, at that time, and yet it drew the line\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "in such -­\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE GINSBURG:\n",
      "\n",
      "How common was\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "stock at that time?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE GINSBURG:\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "How common was it?\n",
      "\n",
      "Yes.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "It -- it was sufficiently\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "common.\n",
      "\n",
      "There was a report cited in our papers\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "in the National Industrial Conference that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "talked about how, going back to the 19th\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "century, many railroads offered stock purchase\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "plans to their employees.\n",
      "\n",
      "So it certainly was\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "a well-recognized form of remuneration back\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "when the statute was enacted.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "And I think if this Court were to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "compare the language that Congress chose to put\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "in the railroad statute compared to what it put\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "in FICA, which was enacted virtually\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "simultaneously in the Great Depression, that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "underscores our interpretation of money\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "remuneration.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "FICA sweeps broadly.\n",
      "\n",
      "As this Court\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "has noted, it encompasses all remuneration,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "including -- and this is critical text -­\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "including any remuneration that is not in cash\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "but that can be valued in cash.\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN:\n",
      "\n",
      "So not -­\n",
      "\n",
      "Mr. Dupree, in the way\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "you talked about it, it's not just that we have\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "to give meaning to the term \"money.\"\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "you're quite right to say that the term we have\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "to look at is \"money remuneration.\"\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "Is that correct?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "I think\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "That's the key term, yes,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Your Honor.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN:\n",
      "\n",
      "And so that's really\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "money in a -- in a compensation scheme, right?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "I mean, that's what that means.\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "Remuneration.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Money remuneration.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "That's right.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN:\n",
      "\n",
      "So let's even take\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "your own definition, which I think that there's\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "a lot to be said for.\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "of money tends to be the one that's first in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "the dictionaries.\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "accepted medium of exchange.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "Your definition tends -­\n",
      "\n",
      "So you said a generally\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "But now you put that with the word\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "\"remuneration\", in other words, in a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "compensation scheme, and then the question\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "becomes:\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "of exchange in a compensation scheme?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "Is stock a generally accepted medium\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "And I would think that the answer to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "that is yes.\n",
      "\n",
      "I mean, we see this all over the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "place, that companies give stock as well as\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "cash in a compensation scheme, that it is a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "generally accepted medium of exchange for\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "compensation.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "Well, I'm not sure it -­\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "it quite works out that way, Justice Kagan.\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "other words, if a company remunerates its\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "employees through some form, say, for example,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "free lunches, I don't think it would be right\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "to say, well, therefore, food has now become a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "In\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "medium of exchange.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "I think a medium of exchange -­\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN:\n",
      "\n",
      "Well, I think partly\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "it's because, you know, some companies might\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "give free lunches and other companies might not\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "give free lunches, and -- and you -- I mean,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "this is -- this is a kind -- instead of getting\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "a check, you're getting stock.\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "right?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "Isn't that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Well, you're getting a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "stock option, which then needs to percolate for\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "many years -­\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN:\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "butterfly and becomes stock.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "Well -- right.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "-- before it turns into a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN:\n",
      "\n",
      "But you can -­\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE GINSBURG:\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN:\n",
      "\n",
      "Yes.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "But, yes.\n",
      "\n",
      "-- you can take it in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "stock.\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "Ninety-three percent of -- of some of these\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "companies' employees just take it in cash;\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "forget about the stock.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "You can take it in cash.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "So why isn't it just, you know, you\n",
      "\n",
      "can get it in cash, you can get it as a stock\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "option or in stock when that matures; it's a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "generally accepted medium of exchange?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "Well, I -- I think a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "generally accepted medium of exchange refers to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "something that, number one, has a fixed value.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "In other words, it's a measure of value.\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "it's something that any citizen could use to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "obtain goods or services in an economy.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "In other words, cash certainly\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "fulfills that function.\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "services with cash.\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "And\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "I can obtain goods and\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "If my employer -­\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN:\n",
      "\n",
      "But that's why -- I\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "mean, in your briefs, you keep on saying you\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "can't take a stock option to a grocery store.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "But I think -- and that's obviously right.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "But I think what I'm saying is that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "would be a relevant question if all we were\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "asking is what's the definition of money.\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "that's not what we're asking.\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "what's the definition of money remuneration.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "But\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "We're asking\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "So the fact that you can't take a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "stock option to a grocery store is irrelevant\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "to that question.\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "it comes to compensation, is a stock option\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "used interchangeably with money?\n",
      "\n",
      "The question is that, when\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "And, I think\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "in this company and many others, it is.\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "it?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "Isn't\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Well, I -- I don't think\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "so.\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "shows that fewer than half the options at issue\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "were actually promptly exchanged for cash.\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "the record in this case shows that these\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "employees -- again, the majority of options at\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "issue were retained as stock.\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "sold for cash.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "Certainly, in this company, the record\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "So\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "They were not\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "And -- and I think under Your -- Your\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "Honor's question, pretty much anything that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "could be sold for cash would be swept into the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "definition of money.\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "gives to an employee can be valued and could be\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "sold.\n",
      "\n",
      "Anything that an employer\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Granted, there are some things that are\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "more liquid than others.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN:\n",
      "\n",
      "Well, let me ask\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "another question, Mr. Dupree, just to test this\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "a little bit.\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "employees, and one employee makes $200,000 in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "cash and is granted $5 million in stock-based\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "compensation.\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "million.\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "$250,000 in cash.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "So let's say a company has two\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Two hundred thousand plus five\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "And the other employee is just given\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "Now who makes more money?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "Well, the -- in Your\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "Honor's -- context of Your Honor's question, I\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "think money is essentially synonymous with\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "overall wealth or assets.\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "definition of money.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN:\n",
      "\n",
      "And that is a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Right.\n",
      "\n",
      "So the answer\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "to my question is, of course, the guy who gets\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "the $5 million in stock makes more money.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "But in -- in the context\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "of that question, I think that's fair.\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "think in the context of this tax statute, I\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "don't think it's right to say that when the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "1937 Congress put the word \"money\" into this\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "tax statute, it meant it in that capacious\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "sense to include the value of everyone's assets\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "But I\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "or their wealth generally.\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "sense.\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "That wouldn't make\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "That -­\n",
      "JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR:\n",
      "\n",
      "Why do we have to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "go that far?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "I -­\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR:\n",
      "\n",
      "Why go that far?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "Why don't we just take what the Seventh Circuit\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "said, which is this form of compensation is\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "money?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR:\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "a bottle of wine at Christmas is not.\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "think going to a baseball game occasionally\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "would be, because those are not -- I don't\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "think of who's richer or not or who's getting\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "paid more or not by those items.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "18\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "Well -­\n",
      "I agree with you,\n",
      "\n",
      "I don't\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "But why do we have to go as far as\n",
      "\n",
      "you're going?\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "Well, I think, to answer\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "Your Honor's question about the Seventh\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "Circuit's analysis, the Seventh Circuit and\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "Judge Posner actually agreed with our\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "definition of money as a commonly accepted\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "medium of exchange.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "Where he went awry in our view is\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "concluding that in the year 2018 stock has\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "become a medium of exchange.\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "that's right.\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "economic authority for that proposition.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "We don't think\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "He certainly cited no legal or\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "His point, I -­\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE GINSBURG:\n",
      "\n",
      "I thought Judge\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "Posner's main point was that there's no\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "economic difference to the recipient, whether\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "he gets $1,000 in cash in hand or a share of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "stock that he can easily convert to $1,000.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "Right.\n",
      "\n",
      "And -- and our\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "response to that, Justice Ginsburg, is that,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "again, taken to its logical conclusion, it\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "would mean that anything an employee gets is\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "money.\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "$10,000, in an economic sense, there may be no\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "difference between getting a car that is worth\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "$10,000 and getting $10,000 in cash.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "If an employee is given a car worth\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "But, when Congress put the word\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "\"money\" in the statute, it did not mean to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "sweep in anything, as the government says, that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "can be valued or that can be sold.\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "way too far.\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "That goes\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "I think that -­\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE GINSBURG:\n",
      "\n",
      "But if you're\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "right, then Congress did a -- an idle thing\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "when it specifically excluded from\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "compensation, subject to the tax, a qualified\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "stock option.\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "then there was no need for that.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "If stock options were not money,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "Well, a few points on\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "that, Justice Ginsburg.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "The first is that the government\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "argues that that exemption is relevant to this\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "case because, in the government's view, it\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "essentially renders our definition -- or it\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "would render the provision surplusage under our\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "definition of money remuneration.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "We think that's wrong, and the reason\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "why that's wrong is because, when an employee\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "exercises a qualified stock option, they always\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "get stock, but -- and this is the critical\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "point and one the government concedes -- they\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "often get cash as well.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "That is why that (e)(12) exemption is\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "not surplusage under our reading.\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "work.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "It does\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "I think it also bears mention that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "that exemption was enacted in 2004, about 70\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "years after the original money remuneration\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "statute was enacted.\n",
      "\n",
      "And I think it would be a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "little peculiar to say that in 2004 Congress\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "intended to change or to tamper with the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "definition of money remuneration that, by the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "way, has remained in that statute unaltered for\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "almost 70 years now.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE GORSUCH:\n",
      "\n",
      "Mr. Dupree, if we're\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "going to look back, as you're encouraging us to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "do, further than 2004, why not look at 1938 and\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "the regulations that were promulgated then that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "suggest that money remuneration is broader than\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "you're arguing?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "Well, Justice Gorsuch, I\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "think actually that that original regulation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "strongly supports our point.\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "regulation says, and this is the original IRS\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "regulation interpreting the statute, is it says\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "that the IRS is going to construe \"money\" to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "include money or anything, and this is the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "critical language, anything that can \"be used\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "in lieu of money.\"\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "What that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "And then they provide a host of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "examples, most of which are salary, bonuses,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "commissions, cash payments.\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "that original regulation strongly supports our\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "view because it underscores the IRS's original\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "So we think that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "understanding of the medium of exchange\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "requirement.\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "lieu of.\"\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "money.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "That's what the words, \"used in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Stock has never been used in lieu of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE GORSUCH:\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "read it more broadly?\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "further response?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "9\n",
      "10\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "Well, what if we\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Would you have any\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Well, if -- if you read\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "it more broadly, I don't think you could read\n",
      "\n",
      "it more broadly to encompass stock.\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE GORSUCH:\n",
      "\n",
      "I'm sure you don't,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "but let's just suppose we did.\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "Then what?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Well, then I would say\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "that that regulation was impermissible,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "conflicts with the statute.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR:\n",
      "\n",
      "So what do we do\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "with history?\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "tax regulation.\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "Railroad Retirement Board, their opinion that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "says stock options are likely to be\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "remuneration, money remuneration.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "I -- I wasn't talking about the\n",
      "\n",
      "I was talking about the U.S.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "You have the 1994 regulation by\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "Treasury, and you have your company and many\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "others paying this tax without saying anything\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "until very recently.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "1\n",
      "2\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "At what point do we say that history\n",
      "\n",
      "supports one reading as opposed to another?\n",
      "\n",
      "As the government points out, yes, you\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "can't perhaps change meaning with later\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "regulation, but later regulation can be a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "reflection of what everyone has understood the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "meaning to be.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "Right.\n",
      "\n",
      "And -- and,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Justice Sotomayor, I think it's fairly clear,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "and I don't think the government disputes this\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "point, that for the vast majority of this\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "railroad statute's existence, the railroads\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "were not, in fact, paying tax on stock.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "The government certainly hasn't said\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "we have evidence from the 1950s and 1960s that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "this was being done.\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "regulation that Justice Gorsuch mentioned, it\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "would not be included.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "And, in fact, under the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "What the -- the government has\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "identified, and Your Honor alluded to this, is\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "that Railroad Retirement Board regulation that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "actually first was issued by way of a decision\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "in 1938, and we think that's very telling,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "because what the Railroad Retirement Board says\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "is it says, under the statutory language, we\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "will only treat stock as remuneration if the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "party, the employer and the employee agree to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "do so, and that they can value it in advance.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "None of that happened here.\n",
      "\n",
      "So, if\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "the government is right that this Court should\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "look to the Railroad Retirement Board's\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "historic treatment of stock, we think that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "strongly supports our position.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "In fact, under a plain,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "straightforward application of that regulation,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "we win this case.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE GINSBURG:\n",
      "\n",
      "Was the government\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "wrong in saying that at least for the last -­\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "for 20 years, railroads have been paying tax,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "treating the stock option as equivalent to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "cash?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "There must have been, if they were\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "paying for 20 years, there must have been\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "something that triggered this inspiration to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "say there's no -­\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KENNEDY:\n",
      "\n",
      "And if I could add\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "to that question, the employees thought it was\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "taxable as well.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "Well, I -- I think what\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "happened -­\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KENNEDY:\n",
      "\n",
      "And -- and -- and so\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "what effect do we give to this long-time\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "practice; even your -- your people in the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "position of your own clients, until recently,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "thought that it was taxable.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "Well, again, I think the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "history going back to the Great Depression up\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "and through the mid-'90s is, as a general\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "matter, the railroads were not paying tax on\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "this.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "As far as what changed, in 1994, the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "IRS came out with a new regulation, it's the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "one that's currently on the books, which is a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "peculiar regulation, in all honesty, because it\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "basically says we're going to treat FICA wages\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "and RRTA compensation to mean the same thing,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "except where they differ.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "But the IRS never, to this day, it\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "never has issued a regulation saying that stock\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "options and stock is taxable under the Railroad\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "Retirement Tax Act.\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "It has never said that.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "So, in 1994, the IRS changed its\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "position.\n",
      "\n",
      "It got rid of its long-standing\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "historic understanding that money remuneration\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "did not include stock, and it issued this new\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "1\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "regulation.\n",
      "\n",
      "At that point, there were several\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "years where I think parties, frankly, didn't\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "quite know what the state of the law was.\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "think it's right that there were some railroads\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "that paid tax.\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "just a judgment that, rather than litigate the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "question, it was easier to pay the tax for a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "few years.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "I do\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "I suspect that may have been\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "But, in our case, the Petitioners in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "this case, we didn't issue stock until 1996.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "And that stock, obviously, the options take\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "years to vest.\n",
      "\n",
      "It can be up to a 10-year term\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "in instances.\n",
      "\n",
      "And in this case, we are seeking\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "refunds beginning with the 2006 tax year.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "So, to the extent there was a period\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "in time where railroads were paying tax, does\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "that reflect a historical practice, I think the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "answer is no.\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "handful of years in the overall 75- to 80-year\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "sweep of this railroad tax statute.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "At most, it might have been a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "We think that if this Court construes\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "the railroad statute's language against FICA,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "that strongly supports our interpretation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "because we are asking you to give meaning to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "the textual difference in the two statutes,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "which were enacted virtually simultaneously in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "the Great Depression.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "Congress deliberately chose very\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "different language in establishing the tax\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "base.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "And even though the railroad statute\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "and FICA have been amended numerous times in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "the 80 years since, those words appear\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "unaltered today in the U.S. Code from the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "moment they appeared when President Roosevelt\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "signed those bills into law.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN:\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "Mr. -­\n",
      "\n",
      "Congress has not changed\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "--\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN:\n",
      "\n",
      "Mr. Dupree, just\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "asking a question, not about the text but about\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "reasons and purposes:\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "reason for why there should be a distinction\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "between FICA and the railroad system with\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "respect to stock options?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "What would be your best\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Absolutely, Justice\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "Kagan.\n",
      "\n",
      "The reason why is, going back to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "history and why Congress made the decision that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "it did, it often, as this Court knows,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "legislates specifically for the railroad\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "industry.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "The railroads, unlike all other\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "industries, had an existing pension system.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "And so the distinction was written into the law\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "to reflect the historic practice in the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "railroad industry.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "When Congress made the decision to\n",
      "\n",
      "federalize these railroad pensions, it said we\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "are going to federalize it, but we will\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "maintain the existing cash-based pension\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "structure that -­\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN:\n",
      "\n",
      "Well, I understand the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "government to be saying that that did exclude\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "certain kinds of things that were clearly not\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "cash-based, but -- you know, lunches or\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "something like that, but that's a different\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "question from the one I'm asking.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "I'm just saying look at this thing,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "stock options, and say why -- why would\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "Congress want it to be taxable in FICA but not\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "taxable in the railroad system?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "Because the railroad\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "system -- retirement system is fundamentally\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "different in key respects from Social Security.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "It has much higher tax rates.\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "railroad combined tax rate is north of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "30 percent, whereas FICA is about 14 percent.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "The railroad retirement system also provides\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "for much more generous benefits to retirees.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "So they are two fundamentally\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "different retirement systems.\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "similarities?\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "And in places -­\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "I mean, the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Yes.\n",
      "\n",
      "Are there\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Is there overlap?\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN:\n",
      "\n",
      "Yes.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "I guess I'm still\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "waiting for a difference that would -- would -­\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "would match why Congress would make this\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "different treatment of stock options.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "Well, I -- I think the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "different treatment of stock options traces\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "back to the original decision that Congress\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "made and that it has maintained now in the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "statutory text for 70-plus years, the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "distinction between a broad wage-based tax\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "system in FICA that encompasses pretty much\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "everything the employee gets and the far\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "narrower tax base that the railroad system\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "utilizes.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "So I think it's just a natural\n",
      "\n",
      "function that when Congress designed the tax\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "basis for these two retirement systems, among\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "many other differences between the two regimes,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "it formulated the tax base in a much narrower\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "manner.\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "treatments for certain things, such as the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "stock options in this case.\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR:\n",
      "\n",
      "That's why today there are different\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "It's a -­\n",
      "I thought -- I\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "thought that the railroad pension system in the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "1930s was at risk.\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "That was one of the reasons\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "why this scheme was developed.\n",
      "\n",
      "Why would you base a new scheme\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "completely on the old scheme that was\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "underfunded to start with?\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "counterintuitive to me that Congress would want\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "to copy the old -- the old system, stock and\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "barrel, when it, as you say, already knew that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "stock options were a part of -- of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "remuneration.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "It seems\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Right.\n",
      "\n",
      "The reason it\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "could address that concern, Justice\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "Sotomayor -- in other words, mirror the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "existing cash-based pension structure in the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "federal regime, is it could address questions\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "of solvency simply by adjusting benefits and\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "tax rates.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "In other words, it wanted to preserve\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "the overall structure, but it would adjust\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "benefit levels, it would adjust tax rates, and,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "of course, there would be an underlying federal\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "guarantee.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR:\n",
      "\n",
      "So what's going to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "happen now?\n",
      "\n",
      "Every railroad is going to not\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "pay -- if we buy your argument, not pay taxes,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "payroll taxes, on stock options.\n",
      "\n",
      "Why don't\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "railroads move to giving out more stock options\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "and less cash?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR:\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "Well, I -- I -- I don't-­\n",
      "And wouldn't that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "put the system into economic difficulty?\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "It would not, Your Honor.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "And a number of points.\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "the last point about putting the system in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "economic difficulty, the railroad system\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "actually has a statute, a provision, that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "self-adjusts based on the money coming in and\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "the benefits going out, to ensure that the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "system remains solvent.\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "Your Honor's question is the statute -­\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "I guess with regard to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "So the short answer to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR:\n",
      "\n",
      "The pensioners get\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "less, is what you're saying to me?\n",
      "\n",
      "This\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "26\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "self-adjusting system means that pensioners\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "will get less.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "necessarily.\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "other words -­\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "7\n",
      "8\n",
      "9\n",
      "10\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "Well, no, no, not\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "I mean, the rate could go up.\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR:\n",
      "\n",
      "In\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Someone pays no\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "matter -­\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "Someone pays.\n",
      "\n",
      "quarreling with you there.\n",
      "\n",
      "I'm not\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "But my point is\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "that the system hasn't -­\n",
      "JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR:\n",
      "\n",
      "So who pays is the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "Joe Blow who gets minimum wage or something\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "close to it, and the people who receive a lot\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "more in stock options pay less?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "I -- I -- well, no, I\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "don't -- I don't think that's right.\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "words, the -- the stock options in this case,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "first of all, were not confined to a narrow\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "group of senior executives.\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "to rank-and-file employees, as well as senior\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "executives.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "In other\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "They were issued\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "The other point is that the RRTA has a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "wage cap, much like Social Security does.\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "only the first portion of an employee's\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "remuneration is actually subject, for the most\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "So\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "27\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "part, to this tax.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "So, as a practical matter, it doesn't\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "have a dramatic impact on overall tax revenues.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "In this case, the amount of tax -­\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR:\n",
      "\n",
      "I don't understand\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "that.\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "how are you going to pay out the same benefits?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "If you get less money into the system,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "Oh, and -- and my point\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "is that it may not be the -- less money going\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "into the system, as Your Honor is positing, and\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "that's because, if you have an executive who is\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "receiving a large salary and stock options,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "they already exceed the compensation cap by\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "virtue of their salary alone.\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "they are getting stock on top of that makes no\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "difference because they're already maxing out\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "on the tax.\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "So the fact that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "That's the point.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "I think also, just as a practical\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "matter, I don't think railroads could move to a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "pure stock-based compensation system for a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "number of reasons.\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "bargaining agreements in place.\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "broadly than that, the stock would have to come\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "from somewhere.\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "now going to start printing more shares in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "One is you have collective\n",
      "\n",
      "But more\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "If a corporation said we are\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "28\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "order to compensate our employees in stock,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "that would massively dilute the value of the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "share, and there's no way shareholders would\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "ever tolerate something like that.\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "a practical -­\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KENNEDY:\n",
      "\n",
      "I think as\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Can -- can you tell\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "me, just as an empirical matter, in -- in this\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "case, are these stocks always listed so that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "there's a list price that everyone knows?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "traded stocks.\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "Yes.\n",
      "\n",
      "These are publicly\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "That's right.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KENNEDY:\n",
      "\n",
      "Could there be\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "instances where there might be small satellite\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "corporations that are not listed, so the -­\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "I -­\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KENNEDY:\n",
      "\n",
      "Because -- because\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "you always know the value if it's publicly\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "traded.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "That's -- that's right,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "Justice Kennedy.\n",
      "\n",
      "And actually, it's a great\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "question because the BNSF railroad, one of the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "nation's largest employers, stock is no longer\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "publicly traded.\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "where a railroad that is not publicly traded\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "issues stock, and then you would have extremely\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "So you could have a situation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "29\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "thorny valuation problems, because it's one\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "thing to say, well, we can calculate the value\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "of the stock based on market price, but if it's\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "not publicly traded, as any accounting textbook\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "will tell you, it can be a very difficult\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "endeavor.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KENNEDY:\n",
      "\n",
      "Is it ever\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "backdated?\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "gets a bonus for today, April 16, is it ever\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "backdated so that you can buy it as -- as of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "the -- April 16, 2017?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "If I get a bonus or the employee\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "I -- I'm not aware of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "that, Your Honor.\n",
      "\n",
      "The way that the options in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "this case worked is that the exercise price is\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "determined at the moment the option is issued.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "So, if in year zero the stock is trading at\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "$100, that's the so-called strike price that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "you can purchase the stock for five, six,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "seven, eight years down the road.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "And I think, frankly, that also -­\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KENNEDY:\n",
      "\n",
      "But is the strike\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "price always equivalent to the price on the day\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "that the option is issued?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "Yes, yes.\n",
      "\n",
      "The day the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "option is issued, that's when they set the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "30\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "strike price.\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "my answer to one of Justice Kagan's earlier\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "questions, I think that's yet another respect\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "in which stock is fundamentally different from\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "money.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "And I think -- just to conclude\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "It's an investment property.\n",
      "\n",
      "The\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "value fluctuates.\n",
      "\n",
      "When these options were\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "issued, no one had any idea what they would be\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "worth.\n",
      "\n",
      "Maybe they'd be worth nothing five, 10\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "years down the road when the option has vested\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "and it's exercised.\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "property with fluctuating value, stands in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "sharp contradistinction to cash, which has a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "fixed value.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "Stocks are investment\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "For those reasons, we ask the Court to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "reverse the judgment below.\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "time.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "19\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "I'll reserve my\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS:\n",
      "\n",
      "Thank you,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "counsel.\n",
      "\n",
      "Ms. Kovner.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "ORAL ARGUMENT OF RACHEL P. KOVNER\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENT\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "24\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "Mr. Chief Justice, and\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "may it please the Court:\n",
      "\n",
      "Three parts of this statute\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "31\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "demonstrate that the phrase \"any form of money\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "remuneration\" refers to those payments that can\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "be readily valued in or converted to cash.\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "first is the statute's text.\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "exclusions for particular kinds of stock\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "options and for in-kind benefits that only make\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "sense if the statute's money remuneration\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "language is given a broad scope.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "The\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "The RRTA contains\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Second are the contemporaneous\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "interpretations of the statutes.\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "predecessor legislation and the agency's\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "earlier regulations construed \"any form of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "money remuneration\" broadly to reach non-cash\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "benefits like the stocks here.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "Both\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "And the third is the statute's\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "objective of providing a financially stable,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "self-supporting retirement system for railroad\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "workers.\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "employers could avoid taxes by paying employees\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "in stock, a highly liquid asset that serves as\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "the functional equivalent of cash for\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "employees.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "That objective would be undermined if\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE GINSBURG:\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "does it work?\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "worker get the remuneration?\n",
      "\n",
      "How does it -- how\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "When does the -- the railroad\n",
      "\n",
      "When he gets the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "32\n",
      "1\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "stock option or only when he cashes it?\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "It's only -- only when he\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "exercises it.\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "important point that goes to what Mr. Dupree\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "was just discussing, which is that stock\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "options are only treated as compensation at the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "moment when they have a readily discernible\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "cash value.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "And I think it's a really\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "So not at the moment that they're\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "issued, but only at the moment that the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "employee exercises them.\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "they have a 100 percent certain cash value.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "And you can see that by looking at the record\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "in this case.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "And at that moment,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "An employee at the company in this\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "case, when they exercised the stock option,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "there's a one-page form, which is Exhibit 78 in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "the record below.\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "instead of stock, they just check a box on the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "form and say:\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "this option to my bank account.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "If they simply want cash\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Please deposit the cash value of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "So these options are only valued at\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "the moment when they have a readily discernible\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "cash equivalent.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "If I can just go to a few of the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "33\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "issues that Mr. Dupree discussed.\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "first is the qualified stock option exemption.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "And this exemption was added to the statute by\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "Congress, and it exempts one particular type of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "stock option.\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "signaling that Congress was understanding that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "other kinds of stock options were going to be\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "subject to taxation under the RRTA.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "I mean, the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "So it -- it is obviously\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN:\n",
      "\n",
      "Ms. -- Ms. Kovner, in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "what circumstances do you think we are allowed\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "to look at what is clearly the natural import\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "of that exemption?\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "exemption came about later, so do we have to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "find that \"money remuneration\" is an ambiguous\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "phrase in order to look at it, or do we take\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "the statute as a whole just generally?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "In other words, that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "I think, you know, what\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "this Court has said about this in West Virginia\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "University Hospitals versus Casey is that the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "Court adopts the permissible meaning that fits\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "most logically and comfortably with both the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "previously enacted and the subsequently enacted\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "provisions.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "So here we think the only meaning that\n",
      "\n",
      "fits with both -- I mean, Mr. Dupree\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "34\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "acknowledged when he stood up that money can\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "have this broader reading that readily\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "encompasses stock.\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "that fits with the qualified stock option\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "exemption.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "And that's the only meaning\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "It's also the only meaning that fits\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "with many other exemptions that Congress added\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "for things that just aren't cash, like for\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "lodging, like for healthcare benefits, like for\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "employee achievement awards, intangible\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "property.\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "the statute extends beyond cash.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "These exceptions only make sense if\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR:\n",
      "\n",
      "May -- may I ask:\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "Was Mr. Dupree right about the history, that it\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "wasn't -- from 1938 to 1994, railroads were not\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "paying on -- cash on options?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR:\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "I don't -­\n",
      "Or not paying\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "payroll taxes on cash -- cash options?\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "I haven't seen any\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "authority on one side or the other regarding\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "very early in the statute's history.\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "we do know, and you can see, you know, page 7\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "of our brief is where we discuss cases that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "recount this history.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "I think\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "35\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "We do know that some employees have\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "been paying taxes on stock options for quite\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "some time.\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "They start issuing options in 1981, and they\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "pay taxes until 2007, when they file suit.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "So Union Pacific is one example.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "So 2011 is the first time that we see\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "a suit challenging whether stock options are\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "taxable under the RRTA and -- and Union Pacific\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "and other railroads were filing -­\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR:\n",
      "\n",
      "How -- what do I\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "do with the fact that where I'm having\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "difficulty making the leap in your argument is\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "Congress did use \"money remuneration\" in one\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "statute and \"wages\" defined very broadly in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "another.\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "That was in 1938.\n",
      "\n",
      "Generally, when you have two different\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "descriptions of words, you have to give them\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "two different meanings of some sort.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR:\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "Sure.\n",
      "So what do I do\n",
      "\n",
      "with that?\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "So -­\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR:\n",
      "\n",
      "You're now\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "equating money remuneration with wages as it\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "appears in FICA, but there -- why weren't\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "36\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "identical words used?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "Sure.\n",
      "\n",
      "So -- and we agree\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "that money has to be given some meaning.\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "we think that Congress was doing something\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "deliberate when it used money in the RRTA but\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "didn't include parallel language in FICA.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "And\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "And at the time that the RRTA was\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "enacted, railroad workers -- and it's discussed\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "in the history and the hearings leading up to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "the enactment of the RRTA -- they received a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "variety of benefits that were sort of hard to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "value, couldn't readily be assigned a monetary\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "value.\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "right to have certain safety gear on the job\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "and an unlimited but non-transferable sort of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "lifetime use of the rail's travel benefit.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "And these included things like the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "So these are things that would have\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "been hard to value, and we think the use of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "money carves those out of the RRTA, whereas\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "they weren't carved out with FICA.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS:\n",
      "\n",
      "You -- you\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "would agree, wouldn't you, that not every form\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "of stock qualifies under your definition?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "Justice Kennedy mentioned non-publicly\n",
      "\n",
      "traded stock.\n",
      "\n",
      "I suppose there are some\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "37\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "entities in which their stock is particularly\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "volatile, I mean, you can expect it to change\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "between the time you get the options or the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "actual stock and -- and when you liquidate it.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "6\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "How are we supposed to tell which\n",
      "\n",
      "stock counts and which doesn't?\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "Sure.\n",
      "\n",
      "So this is an easy\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "case and the Court obviously needs not go\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "further than publicly-traded stock.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "But as with respect to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "privately-traded stock, we think that's covered\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "too, and here's why.\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "-- private -­\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "So it's true that public\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS:\n",
      "\n",
      "When you say\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "covered too, you mean that counts as money\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "remuneration?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "It's -- that's right.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "And it counts as money remuneration only at the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "time that you exercise the option.\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "be that that stock is more volatile than a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "publicly-traded stock, but it has a certain\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "value on the date you exercise the option, and\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "that's the only value that you look to.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "So it might\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Somebody's going to have to value that\n",
      "\n",
      "privately-traded asset for the purpose of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "38\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "income tax.\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "income that's equal to the value of that stock.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "And so we think once they're valuing it for\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "income, it also has a readily discernible\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "market value for the purpose of the RRTA.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "They're going to have to declare\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE GORSUCH:\n",
      "\n",
      "Why would you wait\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "until the day of exercise, though, if it -- why\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "not the date of vesting, and -- and what -- I'm\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "still not clear on what you do with\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "privately-held stock that is not readily -­\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "there's no liquid market value that you can\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "look to at any point in time.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "Sure.\n",
      "\n",
      "So, with respect\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "to the first point, we think that options like\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "those that are issued in this case only have a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "readily ascertainable market value at the time\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "that they are exercised.\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "there tend to be limitations on the options,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "like -­\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE GORSUCH:\n",
      "\n",
      "And that's because\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Almost anything can\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "be valued, though.\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "reduced to money.\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "other than it's convenient for the government?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "I mean, anything can be\n",
      "\n",
      "So why -- why -- why wait,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "No, we think it's a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "matter of whether it has a readily\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "39\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "ascertainable market value.\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "pretty big body of law on the issue of when\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "options satisfy that.\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "Court's decision in Commissioner versus LoBue,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "and it's also the same set of principles that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "are applied for valuing options under the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "income tax code.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "And there's a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "It starts with this\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "And that sort of body of law says, for\n",
      "\n",
      "the kinds of options that are issued here in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "the employment context, there are just too many\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "conditions and conditions -- contingencies on\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "whether you're going to be able to exercise the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "option at all and what its value will be at the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "time of exercise.\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "To assign it -­\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE GORSUCH:\n",
      "\n",
      "No, no, once it\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "vests, it's different.\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "that you will be able to exercise it.\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "just when.\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "later, but it vests, so you immediately at that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "point in time have the right to exercise it on\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "that day.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "23\n",
      "24\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "There's no question\n",
      "\n",
      "It's\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "You may choose to exercise it years\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "I'm still not clear what your answer\n",
      "\n",
      "to the Chief Justice would be.\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "As -- as to a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "publicly-traded stock?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "40\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE GORSUCH:\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "Sure.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "I think our -- our view,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "you know, so there's a sort of pretty\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "established body of IRS law about this, and it\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "looks to, first, the point of issuance and,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "second, the point of -- the point at which you\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "exercise the option.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "I think the IRS has sort of made the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "determination, applying this Court's decision\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "in Commissioner versus LoBue, that those are\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "the two points that you look to.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "And the IRS has generally said at the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "point that the option is issued -­\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE GORSUCH:\n",
      "Fine.\n",
      "\n",
      "So more regulations.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "Okay.\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "general problem, though, that lots of companies\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "issue lots of things to their employees that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "are forms of compensation that can be reduced\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "readily to money?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "And what do we do about the more\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "You mentioned lifetime passes for\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "riding the rails, for example.\n",
      "\n",
      "Sports tickets\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "might be another.\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "another.\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "benefits -- child care -- why don't all those\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "qualify as money remuneration in the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Home technology might be\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Why aren't all those kinds of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "41\n",
      "1\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "government's view, or do they?\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "So I think there are -­\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "our definition of money remuneration basically\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "has two pieces:\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "valued into cash and, second, can it be readily\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "converted into cash?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "First, can it be readily\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "We think that either suffices, but at\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "a minimum, we think the second, which is what\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "you have here and not in those other cases,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "suffices.\n",
      "\n",
      "So, if it's something that you can\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "easily convert into cash, here just by sort of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "checking a box on the form when you exercise\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "the option, we think at a minimum those kinds\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "of things qualify as money remuneration, which\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "is sort of what the Court of Appeals said.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE GORSUCH:\n",
      "\n",
      "A home computer?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS:\n",
      "\n",
      "What about\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "bushels -- bushels of wheat?\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "convertible into cash on the Chicago\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "Commodities Exchange.\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "20 bushels of wheat, you would count that as\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "money remuneration?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "It's readily\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "So, if somebody gave you\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Well, I don't think\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "that's readily convertible to cash for the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "42\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "person who receives it.\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "are certain circumstances in which a person\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "could buy or sell bushels of wheat.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "It's true that there\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "But, certainly, the employee who\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "receives a bushel of wheat in their\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "compensation, if that were to occur, can't\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "readily convert it into cash in the same way\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "that they can convert an option.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN:\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "I mean, I suppose your\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "answer would -­\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS:\n",
      "\n",
      "Well, okay,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "they give you a little -- they say, okay, here,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "you're entitled to buy 20 bushels of wheat on\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "the commodity exchange.\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "money remuneration?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "bushels of wheat?\n",
      "\n",
      "Does that count as\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Well, a voucher for\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "I'm not -­\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS:\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "Right.\n",
      "\n",
      "Sure.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "I think the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "problem is that that voucher for bushels of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "wheat is not going to be something that you -­\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "that the employee can readily convert into\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "cash.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "If you -- if you do get to the point\n",
      "\n",
      "where we're talking about vouchers that -- that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "43\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "do have a readily ascertainable market value, I\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "think it's a pretty helpful example to us\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "because, if you look to the 1938 regulation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "that Justice Gorsuch was alluding to, it gives\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "a pretty expansive definition of money\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "remuneration and it indicates that it includes\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "things like merchandise orders, which I think\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "is perhaps somewhat equivalent to the bushels\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "of wheat voucher.\n",
      "\n",
      "It's something that you\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "could exchange for -- for a commodity at the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "company's store.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "I mean, that kind of thing is less\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "liquid than -- than stock, which anybody can\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "convert to cash and which is used as a means of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "exchange in a variety of circumstances.\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "predominant medium of exchange now in many\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "corporate contexts and employee compensation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "matters.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN:\n",
      "\n",
      "It's a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Ms. Kovner, would your\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "answer to the Chief Justice's question be\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "different if a -- if a company said you can\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "take a bushel of wheat or its equivalent in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "cash value?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "Yes, Your Honor.\n",
      "\n",
      "I mean,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "I think there it's -- it's -- and that's, I\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "44\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "think, more analogous to here, where\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "essentially the employee can check a box on a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "form and they're just receiving cash.\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "essentially instantaneous conversion into cash.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "It -- I mean, and I think going to the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "It's\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "purpose of the statute and what I think, you\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "know, this Court has indicated in United States\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "versus Silk is how this statute should be\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "construed.\n",
      "\n",
      "I mean, this is a statute that's\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "intended to provide a self-sustaining system of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "retirement benefits for railroad workers, and\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "if an employer -­\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE GINSBURG:\n",
      "\n",
      "Except Mr. Dupree\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "told us that there -- there isn't any real\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "jeopardy to the system if these stock options\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "were not subject to the -- to the tax.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "So I don't think -- with\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "respect, I don't think that the points that Mr.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "Dupree was making are exactly correct, and if I\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "could explain why.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "Mr. Dupree's first response was that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "the tax rate self-adjusts under the RRTA.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "That's true for the second tier of the RRTA,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "the sort of supplemental pension benefit\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "system.\n",
      "\n",
      "It's not true for Tier 1, which is the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "45\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "fundamental equivalent of Social Security.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "For Tier 1, you've got the same tax\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "rate as FICA, and you're guaranteed the same\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "benefits level as FICA.\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "strange to imagine that Congress would have\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "thought you could have the same tax rate and\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "the same benefits but a much smaller tax -- tax\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "base.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "So I think it's very\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "And I think the other thing that Mr.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "Dupree said as to why it's not going to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "undermine the RRTA's system is that high-level\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "employees are going to max out on their\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "compensation.\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "matter how their options or how stock-based\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "compensation is treated.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "17\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "So it's not really going to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "And I don't think that's exactly right\n",
      "\n",
      "for two reasons.\n",
      "\n",
      "The first is only part of the RRTA tax\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "maxes out.\n",
      "\n",
      "The part that funds Medicaid does\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "not max out.\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "nothing to stop an -- an employer from\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "converting all of their railroad's compensation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "of a high-level executive to cash.\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "it's not uncommon for a CEO to get $1 in cash\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "and the rest of their payment in stock.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "And the second is that there's\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "I mean,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "46\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KENNEDY:\n",
      "\n",
      "Is a third -- a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "third possibility that the employee waits until\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "after he or she retires and doesn't receive the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "big salary and then exercises the option?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KENNEDY:\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "8\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "The -­\n",
      "Or -- or is that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "unrealistic?\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "You know, it's -- it's\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "possible that there are some options that don't\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "get taxed for that reason, but, obviously, if\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "the Court were to say that any payment that a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "company makes to its employees over the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "duration of their career that takes the form of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "stock is not taxable, that's posing a -- a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "threat to the railroad retirement system.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "You know, I think if the Court has\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "doubts about how the term \"any form of money\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "remuneration\" is -- is construed, ambiguity in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "the word \"money,\" I think the surrounding\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "language is helpful.\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "suggests that the -- the Congress was intending\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "a broader meaning of the term \"money.\"\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "then the -- and then the exceptions that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "Congress added to the statute are really\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "incompatible with Petitioners' definition.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "There's -- \"any form of\"\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "And\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "47\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "And then the contemporaneous\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "interpretations of the statute by both the RRB\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "and the Treasury Department are both broad.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "And Congress amends the statute repeatedly\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "against the backdrop of those interpretations.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "So whatever doubt one has about the -­\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "you know, whether those interpretations were\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "too broad to begin with, once Congress\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "repeatedly amends the statute and doesn't\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "change that base definition of compensation -­\n",
      "JUSTICE GORSUCH:\n",
      "\n",
      "I guess I'm not sure\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "how the regulations help you.\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "recent regulation says, effectively, that money\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "is whatever money is under the statutes.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "I mean, the more\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "That -- that doesn't do much work, it\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "seems to me.\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "chose to replace the 1938 regulation, that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "might or might not be more helpful to the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "government, we can debate that, seems to me a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "lost opportunity for the government.\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "And the fact that -- that the IRS\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "No?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "I mean, I think that if\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "-- if the regulation had provided a lot greater\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "clarity and discussed stock in particular,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "obviously, that would have been helpful.\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "think the regulations are still helpful in two\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "We\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "48\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "ways.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE GORSUCH:\n",
      "\n",
      "How is the existing\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "regulation helpful to the government?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "Sure.\n",
      "\n",
      "So the existing\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "regulation talks about specific limitations in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "the statute as -- as being the way in which the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "RRTA and FICA differ today.\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "only reasonable way to read \"specific\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "limitations\" is that it's talking about the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "And we think the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "enumerated exceptions, which are different\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "under the statute.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "If you look at the preamble, I mean,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "that's what the agency explains that it's\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "doing.\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "exceptions have come into the statute, which\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "deal with the kinds of hard-to-value benefits\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "that were being addressed by money in the first\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "instance, the statutes really have parallel\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "meaning.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "It's saying that now that all these\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "And I think the agency also points out\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "that the statutes now function in parallel in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "that they guarantee the same level of benefits\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "under Tier 1 and have the same tax rate under\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "-- under Tier 1.\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "those things in tandem.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "So it makes sense to construe\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "49\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR:\n",
      "\n",
      "I don't know.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "That doesn't help me because, if you're\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "equating, as the current regulations do, the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "railroad money remuneration with FICA's wages,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "what do we do -- FICA requires you to value a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "hard-to-value stock option, and you're telling\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "me it's not required under money remuneration.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "No, we think -­\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR:\n",
      "\n",
      "So I'm not quite\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "sure how you can equate it when you yourself\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "have recognized the major difference.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "So we think that options\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "would be treated the same under FICA as they\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "are under the RRTA -­\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR:\n",
      "\n",
      "That's easy\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "because it's publicly traded, it's the known\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "value.\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "it seems to be equating money remuneration\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "completely with wages.\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "-- you're not.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "But the way the regulation is reading,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "But you're suggesting\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "And we think \"money\" does\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "some work, we think -- but we think the work\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "that \"money remuneration\" is doing in FICA -­\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "in the RRTA is now basically covered by\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "enumerated exemptions under FICA.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "50\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "So, basically, Congress comes in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "and they add exceptions for things like de\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "minimis benefits and fringe benefits.\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "kinds of things that were generally falling in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "that money bucket under the RRTA, Congress sort\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "of acknowledges that there's a lack of clarity\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "about how those things are going to be treated\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "under FICA, and it enacts a variety of very\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "specific provisions that handle those things.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "The\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "So that's why we think the agency was\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "reasonable in construing those statutes in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "tandem.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "But, of course, the Court doesn't need\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "to reach the question of whether all kinds of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "in-kind benefits are treated exactly the same\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "under FICA and the RRTA.\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "presents is whether stock options, which are a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "form of remuneration that are readily\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "convertible to cash, qualify as money\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "remuneration.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "All this case\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN:\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS:\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN:\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS:\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "And -­\n",
      "If we were -­\n",
      "\n",
      "-- and, Ms. Kovner -­\n",
      "If we were to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "agree with you, we would have to assume that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "51\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "whoever wrote this statute was told we want you\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "to include money remuneration and stock\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "remuneration; and he said, well, a good way to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "do that would be to say \"money remuneration.\"\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "Right?\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "that, aren't you?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "You're -- you're asking us to accept\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "I -- I don't think\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "exactly.\n",
      "\n",
      "I mean, I think, as my friend on the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "other side acknowledged, \"money\" has -- has,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "and had at the time of the statute's enactment,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "a broader use as well as a narrow one.\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "broader use, we think, encompasses stock.\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "I think some ways the Court can see that that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "broader use existed is looking, not only to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "dictionary definitions, but also to the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "predecessor versions -­\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS:\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS:\n",
      "\n",
      "And the\n",
      "\n",
      "And\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Well -­\n",
      "\n",
      "-- of the statute.\n",
      "\n",
      "-- I'm not -­\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "I'm not saying there isn't a broader use and\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "someone might understand it, but I think if you\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "wanted to be even close to being clear, or\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "reasonably clear, and you want to include both\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "money and stock, you wouldn't pick the phrase\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "\"money.\"\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "52\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "I think -­\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS:\n",
      "\n",
      "You would\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "either say \"money and stock,\" or you might say,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "as you suggested, is something readily\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "reducible -- ascertainable value readily\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "reducible to cash.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "It's not clear that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "\"stock\" was, you know, necessarily at the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "forefront of the drafters' mind.\n",
      "\n",
      "I do think\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "that the drafters used \"money\" in the phrase\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "\"any form of money remuneration\" in a broader\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "sense.\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "of the provisions that Congress put forward in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "-- in sort of the various versions.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "And you can see that through the text\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "So there were versions that included a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "carveout for various in-kind benefits.\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "enacted 1935 version of the statute also\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "included a carveout for one kind of in-kind\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "benefits, for free transportation.\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "it's clear from those sort of versions of the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "language that Congress put forward that it\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "understood \"money\" was being used in a broad\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "sense.\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "And the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "So I think\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "And -­\n",
      "JUSTICE KENNEDY:\n",
      "\n",
      "I thought -- I\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "thought you might have answered the Chief\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "53\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "Justice by saying it means any form of money\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "remuneration.\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "about a C minus on the drafting.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "But that still just gives you\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "(Laughter.)\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "You know, obviously -­\n",
      "\n",
      "-- if -- if Congress had\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "spoken directly to stock one way or the other,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "either said it's in or it's out, we wouldn't be\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "here today, but I think the only reasonable\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "interpretation of the word \"money\" as it was\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "used in the statute, particularly given the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "regulations and Congress's ratification of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "those regulations and all of the exceptions\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "that Congress has added since, is that it\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "reaches by -­\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS:\n",
      "\n",
      "You -- you\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "think that's the only reasonable -- I -- I\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "didn't think your argument went that far.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "Well, I -- I'd be happy\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "to accept that it's the most reasonable reading\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "of the statute -­\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS:\n",
      "\n",
      "I thought in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "some places where you're talking about the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "regulations, your idea was it was \"a\"\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "reasonable one.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "54\n",
      "1\n",
      "2\n",
      "3\n",
      "4\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "And -- and we think\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "that -­\n",
      "CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS:\n",
      "\n",
      "Saying it's\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "the only reasonable one is a bit of a stretch.\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "Fair enough.\n",
      "\n",
      "We think\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "it's -- it's certainly the most reasonable\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "reading of the statute in light of its\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "language, in light of what happened since, and\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "in light of Congress's objective in providing a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "self-sustaining employment system.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN:\n",
      "\n",
      "But if I -­\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE ALITO:\n",
      "\n",
      "Do you -- do you think\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "the later adopted exemptions change the meaning\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "of \"money remuneration\"?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "I -- I don't think -­\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE ALITO:\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "How can they do that?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "So I think what this\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "Court has said -- I mean, it said it in Casey,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "it said it in Fausto, it's in the Scalia and\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "Garner treatise, is that when this Court\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "interprets statutes, if there's an ambiguous\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "term in the early statute and then later\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "provisions get enacted that shed light and make\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "clear that Congress is acting on the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "understanding that it's the broader form of -­\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "55\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "of the term that was used, then you construe\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "the statutes together.\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "that makes sense of both provisions, rather\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "than adopting a reading that would make the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "second enactment make no sense.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE ALITO:\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "answer to my question?\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "meaning or not?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "You adopt a reading\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "So the -- what is the\n",
      "\n",
      "Does it change the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "It resolves an ambiguity\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "in the meaning of the prior provision.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN:\n",
      "\n",
      "If you could just go\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "back to some answers you gave to prior\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "questions about how to work this on privately\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "listed companies, did -- did I get it right\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "that you're just saying that -- that the how\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "and exactly -- the -- the method by which this\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "is understood as taxable in this context is the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "same as in the income tax context?\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "right?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "MS. KOVNER:\n",
      "\n",
      "That's right.\n",
      "\n",
      "Is that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "These -­\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "these are going to be valued for purposes of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "the income tax.\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "think that once they're valued for purposes of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "the income tax, they're -- they're also -- that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "value should be ascribed to them for purposes\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Nobody disputes that.\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "And we\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "56\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "of the RRTA tax.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "If there are no further questions, I\n",
      "\n",
      "would ask that the Court affirm.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS:\n",
      "counsel.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "Thank you,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Four minutes, Mr. Dupree.\n",
      "\n",
      "REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF THOMAS H. DUPREE, JR.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONERS\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "Thank you.\n",
      "\n",
      "Just a few\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "points.\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "needs to construe this tax provision in the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "context of the code as a whole.\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "numerous provisions in the code, both as it\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "existed during the Great Depression but also as\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "it exists today, that makes clear that when\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "Congress uses the word \"money\" in a tax\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "statute, it does not mean stock.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "The first is this Court obviously\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "We identify\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "I think that if this Court were to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "reach the conclusion that, in the context of a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "tax statute, the word \"money\" can encompass\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "stock, I think that could have pretty\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "significant spill-over effects to the dozens,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "if not hundreds, of places in the code today\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "that use the word \"money.\"\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "The second -­\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "57\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR:\n",
      "\n",
      "How many of those\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "other code provisions use the words \"money\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "remuneration\" as opposed to just \"money\"?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. DUPREE:\n",
      "\n",
      "They -- they don't,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "Justice Sotomayor, but at the same time, I\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "think \"money remuneration\" can simply be\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "understood as remuneration in money, which, of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "course, begs the question as to, well, what's\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "money?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "And our point is that when Congress\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "puts the word \"money\" in a tax statute, it\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "unambiguously excludes stock.\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "question about that in the current code and the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "code as it existed back in the Great\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "Depression.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "There's no\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "The second point is to the extent the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "government argues that anything that can be\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "valued and sold for cash falls within this\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "capacious definition of money is wrong because\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "I can think of many things that can be sold\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "faster for cash at a much lower transaction\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "cost, for example, baseball tickets.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "If I have two tickets to the Nationals\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "and Rockies game, I can sell those and change\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "those into cash a lot faster than I could find\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official\n",
      "\n",
      "58\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "a broker and sell my shares of stock on a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "market.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "The third point I would make, and I\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "think it's apropos since Tax Day is almost upon\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "us, is the government, the IRS, requires that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "we taxpayers pay our taxes in money.\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "not let taxpayers pay their taxes in stock.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "Unless there are further questions, we\n",
      "\n",
      "ask the judgment below be reversed.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "11\n",
      "12\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "It will\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS:\n",
      "counsel.\n",
      "\n",
      "Thank you,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "The case is submitted.\n",
      "\n",
      "(Whereupon, at 10:55 a.m., the hearing\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "concluded.)\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "15\n",
      "16\n",
      "17\n",
      "18\n",
      "19\n",
      "20\n",
      "21\n",
      "22\n",
      "23\n",
      "24\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "59\n",
      "Official\n",
      "�\n",
      "11,13 12:23\n",
      "$\n",
      "account [1] 32:21\n",
      "$1 [1] 45:24\n",
      "accounting [1] 29:4\n",
      "$1,000 [2] 13:9,10\n",
      "achievement [1] 34:10\n",
      "$10,000 [3] 13:16,18,18\n",
      "acknowledged [2] 34:1 51:9\n",
      "$100 [1] 29:17\n",
      "acknowledges [1] 50:6\n",
      "$200,000 [1] 11:5\n",
      "Act [3] 3:11 4:25 19:21\n",
      "$250,000 [1] 11:9\n",
      "acting [1] 54:24\n",
      "$5 [2] 11:6,18\n",
      "actual [1] 37:4\n",
      "actually [8] 5:11 10:15 12:22 15:\n",
      "1\n",
      "13 17:22 25:19 26:25 28:20\n",
      "[4]\n",
      "1 44:25 45:2 48:23,24\n",
      "add [2] 18:21 50:2\n",
      "10 [1] 30:9\n",
      "added [4] 33:3 34:7 46:24 53:14\n",
      "10-year [1] 20:13\n",
      "address [2] 24:20,23\n",
      "[2]\n",
      "10:05 1:14 3:2\n",
      "addressed [1] 48:17\n",
      "10:55 [1] 58:12\n",
      "adjust [2] 25:2,3\n",
      "100 [1] 32:12\n",
      "adjusting [1] 24:24\n",
      "[1]\n",
      "14 23:3\n",
      "adopt [1] 55:2\n",
      "16 [3] 1:10 29:9,11\n",
      "adopted [1] 54:13\n",
      "17-530 [1] 3:4\n",
      "adopting [1] 55:4\n",
      "[1]\n",
      "1930s 24:9\n",
      "adopts [1] 33:20\n",
      "1935 [1] 52:17\n",
      "advance [1] 18:3\n",
      "[1]\n",
      "1937 11:23\n",
      "[1]\n",
      "1938 [6] 15:8 17:23 34:15 35:15 43: affirm 56:3\n",
      "[3] 48:13,20 50:10\n",
      "agency\n",
      "3 47:17\n",
      "[1] 31:11\n",
      "agency's\n",
      "[1]\n",
      "1950s 17:15\n",
      "[5] 12:11 18:2 36:2,22 50:25\n",
      "agree\n",
      "1960s [1] 17:15\n",
      "agreed [1] 12:22\n",
      "1981 [1] 35:4\n",
      "agreements [1] 27:22\n",
      "[4]\n",
      "1994 16:22 19:11,22 34:15\n",
      "AL [1] 1:3\n",
      "1996 [1] 20:11\n",
      "ALITO [3] 54:12,16 55:6\n",
      "19th [1] 6:7\n",
      "allowed [1] 33:10\n",
      "2\n",
      "alluded [1] 17:20\n",
      "alluding [1] 43:4\n",
      "20 [4] 18:14,18 41:22 42:13\n",
      "almost [3] 15:5 38:20 58:4\n",
      "2004 [3] 14:23 15:1,8\n",
      "alone [1] 27:14\n",
      "2006 [1] 20:15\n",
      "already [3] 24:16 27:13,16\n",
      "2007 [1] 35:5\n",
      "[1]\n",
      "ambiguity [2] 46:18 55:9\n",
      "2011 35:6\n",
      "ambiguous [2] 33:14 54:21\n",
      "2017 [1] 29:11\n",
      "amended [1] 21:8\n",
      "2018 [2] 1:10 13:1\n",
      "amends [2] 47:4,9\n",
      "3\n",
      "among [1] 24:1\n",
      "3 [1] 2:4\n",
      "amount [1] 27:4\n",
      "30 [2] 2:7 23:3\n",
      "analogous [1] 44:1\n",
      "analysis [1] 12:21\n",
      "5\n",
      "another [6] 11:3 17:2 30:3 35:15\n",
      "[1]\n",
      "56 2:10\n",
      "40:22,23\n",
      "7\n",
      "answer [10] 7:23 11:16 12:19 20:\n",
      "19 25:22 30:2 39:22 42:10 43:20\n",
      "7 [1] 34:23\n",
      "55:7\n",
      "70 [2] 14:23 15:5\n",
      "answered [1] 52:25\n",
      "70-plus [1] 23:18\n",
      "answers [1] 55:12\n",
      "[1]\n",
      "75 20:20\n",
      "anybody [1] 43:13\n",
      "78 [1] 32:17\n",
      "Appeals [1] 41:16\n",
      "8\n",
      "appear [1] 21:9\n",
      "80 [1] 21:9\n",
      "APPEARANCES [1] 1:16\n",
      "80-year [1] 20:20\n",
      "appeared [1] 21:11\n",
      "appears [1] 35:25\n",
      "A\n",
      "application [1] 18:10\n",
      "a.m [3] 1:14 3:2 58:12\n",
      "applied [1] 39:6\n",
      "able [2] 39:12,17\n",
      "applying [1] 40:9\n",
      "above-entitled [1] 1:12\n",
      "April [3] 1:10 29:9,11\n",
      "Absolutely [1] 21:22\n",
      "apropos [1] 58:4\n",
      "accept [2] 51:5 53:20\n",
      "aren't [3] 34:8 40:23 51:6\n",
      "accepted [7] 3:18 7:17,21 8:2 9:\n",
      "argues [2] 14:8 57:17\n",
      "\n",
      "arguing [1] 15:11\n",
      "argument [11] 1:13 2:2,5,8 3:4,7\n",
      "\n",
      "both [10] 4:20 5:12 31:10 33:21,25\n",
      "\n",
      "25:8 30:21 35:12 53:18 56:7\n",
      "ascertainable [4] 38:16 39:1 43:1\n",
      "52:5\n",
      "ascribed [1] 55:25\n",
      "asset [2] 31:20 37:25\n",
      "assets [2] 11:14,25\n",
      "assign [1] 39:14\n",
      "assigned [1] 36:12\n",
      "Assistant [1] 1:19\n",
      "assume [1] 50:25\n",
      "authority [2] 13:4 34:21\n",
      "avoid [1] 31:19\n",
      "awards [1] 34:10\n",
      "aware [1] 29:12\n",
      "awry [1] 12:25\n",
      "\n",
      "bottle [1] 12:12\n",
      "box [3] 32:19 41:13 44:2\n",
      "brief [1] 34:24\n",
      "briefs [1] 9:22\n",
      "broad [5] 23:19 31:8 47:3,8 52:22\n",
      "broader [9] 15:10 34:2 46:22 51:\n",
      "\n",
      "B\n",
      "back\n",
      "\n",
      "[9] 5:19\n",
      "\n",
      "6:7,10 15:7 19:7 21:\n",
      "23 23:16 55:12 57:14\n",
      "backdated [2] 29:8,10\n",
      "backdrop [1] 47:5\n",
      "bank [2] 4:2 32:21\n",
      "bargaining [1] 27:22\n",
      "barrel [1] 24:16\n",
      "base [6] 21:6 23:22 24:3,11 45:8\n",
      "47:10\n",
      "baseball [2] 12:13 57:22\n",
      "based [2] 25:20 29:3\n",
      "basically [4] 19:15 41:3 49:24 50:\n",
      "1\n",
      "basis [1] 24:1\n",
      "bears [1] 14:22\n",
      "become [3] 5:3 8:9 13:2\n",
      "becomes [2] 7:21 8:24\n",
      "begin [1] 47:8\n",
      "beginning [1] 20:15\n",
      "begs [1] 57:8\n",
      "behalf [8] 1:18,21 2:4,7,10 3:8 30:\n",
      "22 56:8\n",
      "believe [1] 3:16\n",
      "below [3] 30:16 32:18 58:9\n",
      "benefit [3] 25:3 36:16 44:24\n",
      "benefits [20] 5:15 23:5 24:24 25:\n",
      "21 27:7 31:6,14 34:9 36:11 40:24\n",
      "44:11 45:4,7 48:16,22 50:3,3,15\n",
      "52:16,19\n",
      "best [1] 21:18\n",
      "between [5] 13:17 21:20 23:19 24:\n",
      "2 37:3\n",
      "beyond [1] 34:12\n",
      "big [2] 39:2 46:4\n",
      "bills [1] 21:12\n",
      "bit [2] 11:4 54:4\n",
      "Blow [1] 26:12\n",
      "BNSF [1] 28:21\n",
      "Board [3] 16:19 17:21,24\n",
      "Board's [1] 18:6\n",
      "body [3] 39:2,8 40:4\n",
      "bond [3] 4:7,8,10\n",
      "bonus [2] 29:8,9\n",
      "bonuses [1] 15:22\n",
      "books [1] 19:13\n",
      "\n",
      "47:2,3 51:23 55:3 56:13\n",
      "\n",
      "11,12,14,20 52:11 54:25\n",
      "\n",
      "broadly [7] 6:19 16:6,9,10 27:23\n",
      "31:13 35:14\n",
      "\n",
      "broker [1] 58:1\n",
      "bucket [1] 50:5\n",
      "bushel [2] 42:5 43:22\n",
      "bushels [8] 41:19,19,22 42:3,13,\n",
      "17,20 43:8\n",
      "\n",
      "butterfly [1] 8:24\n",
      "buy [5] 3:20 25:8 29:10 42:3,13\n",
      "\n",
      "C\n",
      "calculate [1] 29:2\n",
      "came [3] 1:12 19:12 33:13\n",
      "cap [2] 26:23 27:13\n",
      "capacious [2] 11:24 57:19\n",
      "car [2] 13:15,17\n",
      "care [1] 40:24\n",
      "career [1] 46:13\n",
      "carved [1] 36:20\n",
      "carveout [2] 52:16,18\n",
      "carves [1] 36:19\n",
      "Case [19] 3:4,14 10:16 14:9 18:11\n",
      "20:10,11,14 24:6 26:17 27:4 28:8\n",
      "29:14 32:14,16 37:8 38:15 50:16\n",
      "58:11\n",
      "cases [2] 34:24 41:9\n",
      "Casey [2] 33:19 54:18\n",
      "cash [52] 4:13 5:7 6:22,23 8:1 9:4,\n",
      "6,9,18,20 10:15,19,22 11:6,9 13:9,\n",
      "18 14:18 15:23 18:16 25:11 30:13\n",
      "31:3,21 32:8,12,18,20,24 34:8,12,\n",
      "16,19,19 41:5,6,12,20,25 42:7,23\n",
      "43:14,23 44:3,4 45:23,24 50:19\n",
      "52:6 57:18,21,25\n",
      "cash-based [4] 5:13 22:11,16 24:\n",
      "22\n",
      "cashes [1] 32:1\n",
      "CENTRAL [2] 1:3 3:5\n",
      "century [1] 6:8\n",
      "CEO [1] 45:24\n",
      "certain [6] 22:15 24:5 32:12 36:14\n",
      "37:21 42:2\n",
      "certainly [7] 6:9 9:18 10:13 13:3\n",
      "17:14 42:4 54:6\n",
      "challenging [1] 35:7\n",
      "change [7] 15:2 17:4 37:2 47:10\n",
      "54:13 55:7 57:24\n",
      "changed [3] 19:11,22 21:14\n",
      "check [7] 3:22,23 4:3,15 8:17 32:\n",
      "19 44:2\n",
      "checking [1] 41:13\n",
      "Chicago [1] 41:20\n",
      "CHIEF [22] 3:3,9 30:18,23 36:21\n",
      "37:14 39:23 41:18 42:11,18 43:20\n",
      "50:22,24 51:17,19 52:2,25 53:16,\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "Sheet 1\n",
      "\n",
      "$1 - CHIEF\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "60\n",
      "Official\n",
      "�\n",
      "22 54:3 56:4 58:10\n",
      "child [1] 40:24\n",
      "choose [1] 39:18\n",
      "chose [3] 6:13 21:4 47:17\n",
      "Christmas [1] 12:12\n",
      "Circuit [2] 12:7,21\n",
      "Circuit's [1] 12:21\n",
      "circumstances [3] 33:10 42:2 43:\n",
      "15\n",
      "cited [2] 6:5 13:3\n",
      "citizen [1] 9:16\n",
      "clarity [2] 47:23 50:6\n",
      "clear [9] 17:9 38:9 39:22 51:22,23\n",
      "52:7,20 54:24 56:15\n",
      "clearly [2] 22:15 33:11\n",
      "clients [1] 19:4\n",
      "close [2] 26:13 51:22\n",
      "code [12] 4:19,20,22,23 21:10 39:7\n",
      "56:12,13,23 57:2,13,14\n",
      "coins [1] 4:13\n",
      "collective [1] 27:21\n",
      "combined [1] 23:2\n",
      "come [2] 27:23 48:15\n",
      "comes [2] 10:8 50:1\n",
      "comfortably [1] 33:21\n",
      "coming [1] 25:20\n",
      "Commissioner [2] 39:4 40:10\n",
      "commissions [1] 15:23\n",
      "Commodities [1] 41:21\n",
      "commodity [2] 42:14 43:10\n",
      "common [3] 5:25 6:2,5\n",
      "commonly [1] 12:23\n",
      "companies [5] 7:25 8:13,14 40:16\n",
      "55:14\n",
      "companies' [1] 9:6\n",
      "company [8] 8:6 10:10,13 11:4 16:\n",
      "23 32:15 43:21 46:12\n",
      "company's [1] 43:11\n",
      "compare [1] 6:13\n",
      "compared [1] 6:14\n",
      "compensate [1] 28:1\n",
      "compensated [1] 5:12\n",
      "compensation [24] 5:1,2,6,7 7:8,\n",
      "20,22 8:1,3 10:8 11:7 12:8 14:2\n",
      "19:16 27:13,20 32:6 40:18 42:6\n",
      "43:17 45:13,15,22 47:10\n",
      "completely [2] 24:12 49:19\n",
      "computer [1] 41:17\n",
      "concedes [1] 14:17\n",
      "concern [1] 24:20\n",
      "conclude [1] 30:1\n",
      "concluded [1] 58:13\n",
      "concluding [1] 13:1\n",
      "conclusion [2] 13:13 56:19\n",
      "conditions [2] 39:11,11\n",
      "Conference [1] 6:6\n",
      "confined [1] 26:18\n",
      "confirmed [1] 4:17\n",
      "conflicts [1] 16:15\n",
      "Congress [34] 5:20 6:13 11:23 13:\n",
      "19,25 15:1 21:4,14,24 22:8,21 23:\n",
      "12,16,25 24:14 33:4,6 34:7 35:13\n",
      "36:4 45:5 46:21,24 47:4,8 50:1,5\n",
      "52:13,21 53:6,14 54:24 56:16 57:\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "Congress's [2] 53:12 54:9\n",
      "constitute [4] 3:24 4:3,10,12\n",
      "construe [4] 15:17 48:24 55:1 56:\n",
      "\n",
      "demonstrate [1] 31:1\n",
      "Department [2] 1:20 47:3\n",
      "deposit [2] 4:15 32:20\n",
      "Depression [8] 4:21 5:10,19 6:16\n",
      "19:7 21:3 56:14 57:15\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "construed [3] 31:12 44:9 46:18\n",
      "construes [1] 20:22\n",
      "construing [1] 50:11\n",
      "contains [1] 31:4\n",
      "contemporaneous [2] 31:9 47:1\n",
      "context [9] 4:18 11:12,19,21 39:10\n",
      "55:17,18 56:12,19\n",
      "\n",
      "contexts [1] 43:17\n",
      "contingencies [1] 39:11\n",
      "contradistinction [1] 30:13\n",
      "convenient [1] 38:23\n",
      "conversion [1] 44:4\n",
      "convert [6] 13:10 41:12 42:7,8,22\n",
      "43:14\n",
      "\n",
      "converted [2] 31:3 41:6\n",
      "convertible [4] 5:7 41:20,25 50:\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "converting [1] 45:22\n",
      "copy [1] 24:15\n",
      "corporate [1] 43:17\n",
      "corporation [1] 27:24\n",
      "corporations [1] 28:14\n",
      "correct [2] 7:4 44:19\n",
      "cost [1] 57:22\n",
      "couldn't [1] 36:12\n",
      "counsel [3] 30:19 56:5 58:11\n",
      "count [2] 41:22 42:14\n",
      "counterintuitive [1] 24:14\n",
      "counts [3] 37:6,15,18\n",
      "course [4] 11:17 25:4 50:13 57:8\n",
      "COURT [24] 1:1,13 3:10 6:12,19\n",
      "18:5 20:22 21:25 30:15,24 33:18,\n",
      "20 37:8 41:16 44:7 46:11,16 50:\n",
      "13 51:13 54:18,20 56:3,10,18\n",
      "Court's [2] 39:4 40:9\n",
      "covered [3] 37:11,15 49:24\n",
      "critical [3] 6:21 14:16 15:19\n",
      "currency [3] 4:1,2,15\n",
      "current [2] 49:3 57:13\n",
      "currently [1] 19:13\n",
      "\n",
      "D\n",
      "D.C\n",
      "date [2] 37:22 38:8\n",
      "day [6] 19:18 29:22,24 38:7 39:21\n",
      "[3] 1:9,17,20\n",
      "\n",
      "58:4\n",
      "\n",
      "de [1] 50:2\n",
      "deal [1] 48:16\n",
      "debate [1] 47:19\n",
      "decision [6] 17:22 21:24 22:8 23:\n",
      "16 39:4 40:9\n",
      "\n",
      "declare [1] 38:1\n",
      "defined [1] 35:14\n",
      "definition [16] 7:13,14 10:2,4,23\n",
      "11:15 12:23 14:10,12 15:3 36:23\n",
      "41:3 43:5 46:25 47:10 57:19\n",
      "definitions [1] 51:15\n",
      "deliberate [1] 36:5\n",
      "deliberately [1] 21:4\n",
      "\n",
      "descriptions [1] 35:17\n",
      "designed [1] 23:25\n",
      "determination [1] 40:9\n",
      "determined [1] 29:15\n",
      "developed [1] 24:10\n",
      "dictionaries [1] 7:16\n",
      "dictionary [1] 51:15\n",
      "differ [2] 19:17 48:7\n",
      "difference [6] 13:8,17 21:1 23:11\n",
      "\n",
      "effect [1] 19:2\n",
      "effectively [1] 47:13\n",
      "effects [1] 56:22\n",
      "eight [1] 29:19\n",
      "either [3] 41:7 52:3 53:8\n",
      "empirical [1] 28:7\n",
      "employee [17] 10:24 11:5,8 13:14,\n",
      "\n",
      "15 14:14 18:2 23:21 29:8 32:11,\n",
      "15 34:10 42:4,22 43:17 44:2 46:2\n",
      "employee's [1] 26:24\n",
      "employees [18] 5:11,14,17,21 6:9\n",
      "8:7 9:6 10:17 11:5 18:22 26:20 28:\n",
      "1 31:19,22 35:1 40:17 45:12 46:\n",
      "12\n",
      "27:16 49:11\n",
      "employees' [1] 3:12\n",
      "differences [1] 24:2\n",
      "employer [5] 9:20 10:23 18:2 44:\n",
      "12 45:21\n",
      "different [14] 5:18 21:5 22:17,25\n",
      "23:7,13,15 24:4 30:4 35:16,18 39: employers [2] 28:22 31:19\n",
      "16 43:21 48:10\n",
      "employment [2] 39:10 54:10\n",
      "difficult [1] 29:5\n",
      "enacted [13] 4:22 5:1,11 6:11,15\n",
      "14:23,25 21:2 33:22,22 36:8 52:\n",
      "difficulty [3] 25:14,18 35:12\n",
      "17 54:23\n",
      "dilute [1] 28:2\n",
      "direct [1] 4:15\n",
      "enactment [3] 36:10 51:10 55:5\n",
      "directly [1] 53:7\n",
      "enacts [1] 50:8\n",
      "discernible [3] 32:7,23 38:4\n",
      "encompass [3] 4:14 16:10 56:20\n",
      "discuss [1] 34:24\n",
      "encompasses [4] 6:20 23:20 34:\n",
      "3 51:12\n",
      "discussed [3] 33:1 36:8 47:23\n",
      "discussing [1] 32:5\n",
      "encouraging [1] 15:7\n",
      "disputes [2] 17:10 55:22\n",
      "end [1] 4:4\n",
      "distinction [3] 21:19 22:5 23:19\n",
      "endeavor [1] 29:6\n",
      "doing [3] 36:4 48:14 49:23\n",
      "enough [1] 54:5\n",
      "done [1] 17:16\n",
      "ensure [1] 25:21\n",
      "doubt [1] 47:6\n",
      "entities [1] 37:1\n",
      "doubts [1] 46:17\n",
      "entitled [1] 42:13\n",
      "down [2] 29:19 30:10\n",
      "enumerated [2] 48:10 49:25\n",
      "dozens [1] 56:22\n",
      "equal [1] 38:2\n",
      "draft [1] 4:2\n",
      "equate [1] 49:10\n",
      "drafters [1] 52:10\n",
      "equating [3] 35:24 49:3,18\n",
      "drafters' [1] 52:9\n",
      "equivalent [7] 18:15 29:22 31:21\n",
      "32:24 43:8,22 45:1\n",
      "drafting [1] 53:3\n",
      "dramatic [1] 27:3\n",
      "ESQ [4] 1:17 2:3,6,9\n",
      "drew [1] 5:23\n",
      "essentially [5] 3:25 11:13 14:10\n",
      "DUPREE [65] 1:17 2:3,9 3:6,7,9,23 44:2,4\n",
      "4:6,9,24 5:8 6:2,4,24 7:5,10 8:4,\n",
      "established [1] 40:4\n",
      "19,23 9:2,12 10:12 11:3,11,19 12: establishing [1] 21:5\n",
      "5,10,19 13:11 14:5 15:6,12 16:8,\n",
      "ET [1] 1:3\n",
      "13 17:8 18:24 19:6 21:14,16,22\n",
      "even [4] 7:12 19:3 21:7 51:22\n",
      "22:23 23:14 24:19 25:12,15 26:3, everyone [2] 17:6 28:9\n",
      "8,15 27:8 28:10,15,19 29:12,24\n",
      "everyone's [1] 11:25\n",
      "32:4 33:1,25 34:14 44:13,19 45:\n",
      "everything [2] 5:14 23:21\n",
      "10 56:6,7,9 57:4\n",
      "evidence [1] 17:15\n",
      "Dupree's [1] 44:21\n",
      "exactly [5] 44:19 45:16 50:15 51:8\n",
      "55:16\n",
      "duration [1] 46:13\n",
      "during [2] 4:20 56:14\n",
      "example [5] 8:7 35:3 40:21 43:2\n",
      "57:22\n",
      "E\n",
      "examples [1] 15:22\n",
      "e)(12 [1] 14:19\n",
      "exceed [1] 27:13\n",
      "earlier [2] 30:2 31:12\n",
      "except [2] 19:17 44:13\n",
      "early [2] 34:22 54:22\n",
      "exceptions [6] 34:11 46:23 48:10,\n",
      "easier [1] 20:8\n",
      "15 50:2 53:13\n",
      "easily [2] 13:10 41:12\n",
      "exchange [17] 3:19,24 7:17,22 8:2,\n",
      "easy [2] 37:7 49:15\n",
      "10,11 9:11,13 12:24 13:2 16:1 41:\n",
      "economic [5] 13:4,8,16 25:14,18\n",
      "21 42:14 43:10,15,16\n",
      "economy [1] 9:17\n",
      "exchanged [1] 10:15\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "Sheet 2\n",
      "\n",
      "CHIEF - exchanged\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "61\n",
      "Official\n",
      "�\n",
      "exclude [1] 22:14\n",
      "excluded [1] 14:1\n",
      "excludes [1] 57:12\n",
      "exclusions [1] 31:5\n",
      "executive [2] 27:11 45:23\n",
      "executives [2] 26:19,21\n",
      "exemption [8] 14:8,19,23 33:2,3,\n",
      "12,13 34:5\n",
      "\n",
      "exemptions [3] 34:7 49:25 54:13\n",
      "exempts [1] 33:4\n",
      "exercise [11] 29:14 37:19,22 38:7\n",
      "39:12,14,17,18,20 40:7 41:13\n",
      "\n",
      "exercised [3] 30:11 32:16 38:17\n",
      "exercises [4] 14:15 32:3,11 46:4\n",
      "Exhibit [1] 32:17\n",
      "existed [5] 4:20 5:19 51:14 56:14\n",
      "57:14\n",
      "\n",
      "existence [1] 17:12\n",
      "existing [5] 22:4,11 24:22 48:2,4\n",
      "exists [2] 4:22 56:15\n",
      "expansive [1] 43:5\n",
      "expect [1] 37:2\n",
      "explain [1] 44:20\n",
      "explains [1] 48:13\n",
      "extends [1] 34:12\n",
      "extent [2] 20:16 57:16\n",
      "extremely [1] 28:25\n",
      "\n",
      "F\n",
      "fact [7] 10:5 17:13,16 18:9 27:14\n",
      "35:11 47:16\n",
      "fair [2] 11:20 54:5\n",
      "fairly [1] 17:9\n",
      "falling [1] 50:4\n",
      "falls [1] 57:18\n",
      "far [7] 12:4,6,17 13:23 19:11 23:21\n",
      "53:18\n",
      "faster [2] 57:21,25\n",
      "Fausto [1] 54:19\n",
      "federal [2] 24:23 25:4\n",
      "federalize [2] 22:9,10\n",
      "few [4] 14:5 20:9 32:25 56:9\n",
      "fewer [1] 10:14\n",
      "FICA [21] 6:15,19 19:15 20:23 21:8,\n",
      "20 22:21 23:3,20 35:25 36:6,20\n",
      "45:3,4 48:7 49:5,13,23,25 50:8,16\n",
      "FICA's [1] 49:4\n",
      "file [1] 35:5\n",
      "filing [1] 35:9\n",
      "financially [1] 31:16\n",
      "find [2] 33:14 57:25\n",
      "Fine [1] 40:15\n",
      "first [16] 3:4 7:15 14:7 17:22 26:18,\n",
      "24 31:4 33:2 35:6 38:14 40:5 41:4\n",
      "44:21 45:18 48:17 56:10\n",
      "fits [4] 33:20,25 34:4,6\n",
      "five [3] 11:7 29:18 30:9\n",
      "fixed [2] 9:14 30:14\n",
      "fluctuates [1] 30:7\n",
      "fluctuating [1] 30:12\n",
      "food [1] 8:9\n",
      "forefront [1] 52:9\n",
      "forget [1] 9:7\n",
      "form [20] 5:2,5,6 6:10 8:7 12:8 31:\n",
      "\n",
      "1,12 32:17,20 36:22 41:13 44:3\n",
      "46:13,17,20 50:18 52:11 53:1 54:\n",
      "25\n",
      "forms [2] 5:18 40:18\n",
      "formulated [1] 24:3\n",
      "forward [2] 52:13,21\n",
      "Four [1] 56:6\n",
      "frankly [2] 20:3 29:20\n",
      "free [5] 5:15 8:8,14,15 52:19\n",
      "frequent [1] 5:3\n",
      "friend [1] 51:8\n",
      "fringe [1] 50:3\n",
      "fulfills [1] 9:19\n",
      "function [3] 9:19 23:25 48:21\n",
      "functional [1] 31:21\n",
      "fundamental [1] 45:1\n",
      "fundamentally [3] 22:24 23:6 30:\n",
      "4\n",
      "funds [1] 45:19\n",
      "further [5] 15:8 16:7 37:9 56:2 58:\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "G\n",
      "game [2] 12:13 57:24\n",
      "Garner [1] 54:20\n",
      "gave [3] 5:14 41:21 55:12\n",
      "gear [1] 36:14\n",
      "General [3] 1:19 19:8 40:16\n",
      "generally [11] 3:18 7:16,21 8:2 9:\n",
      "11,13 12:1 33:16 35:16 40:12 50:\n",
      "4\n",
      "generous [1] 23:5\n",
      "gets [7] 11:17 13:9,14 23:21 26:12\n",
      "29:9 31:25\n",
      "getting [7] 8:16,17,19 12:15 13:17,\n",
      "18 27:15\n",
      "GINSBURG [12] 4:24 5:8,25 6:3 9:\n",
      "1 13:6,12,24 14:6 18:12 31:23 44:\n",
      "13\n",
      "give [8] 7:1,25 8:14,15 19:2 20:25\n",
      "35:17 42:12\n",
      "given [5] 11:8 13:15 31:8 36:3 53:\n",
      "11\n",
      "gives [3] 10:24 43:4 53:2\n",
      "giving [1] 25:10\n",
      "goods [2] 9:17,19\n",
      "GORSUCH [14] 15:6,12 16:5,11\n",
      "17:17 38:6,20 39:15 40:1,14 41:\n",
      "17 43:4 47:11 48:2\n",
      "got [2] 19:23 45:2\n",
      "government [16] 13:21 14:7,17\n",
      "17:3,10,14,19 18:5,12 22:14 38:\n",
      "23 47:19,20 48:3 57:17 58:5\n",
      "government's [2] 14:9 41:1\n",
      "Granted [2] 10:25 11:6\n",
      "Great [9] 4:21 5:10,19 6:16 19:7\n",
      "21:3 28:20 56:14 57:14\n",
      "greater [1] 47:22\n",
      "grocery [2] 9:23 10:6\n",
      "group [1] 26:19\n",
      "guarantee [2] 25:5 48:22\n",
      "guaranteed [1] 45:3\n",
      "guess [3] 23:10 25:16 47:11\n",
      "guy [1] 11:17\n",
      "\n",
      "H\n",
      "half [1] 10:14\n",
      "hand [1] 13:9\n",
      "handful [1] 20:20\n",
      "handle [1] 50:9\n",
      "happen [1] 25:7\n",
      "happened [3] 18:4,25 54:8\n",
      "happy [1] 53:19\n",
      "hard [2] 36:11,18\n",
      "hard-to-value [2] 48:16 49:6\n",
      "healthcare [1] 34:9\n",
      "hear [1] 3:3\n",
      "hearing [1] 58:12\n",
      "hearings [1] 36:9\n",
      "help [2] 47:12 49:2\n",
      "helpful [6] 43:2 46:20 47:18,24,25\n",
      "48:3\n",
      "\n",
      "high-level [2] 45:11,23\n",
      "higher [1] 23:1\n",
      "highly [1] 31:20\n",
      "historic [3] 18:7 19:24 22:6\n",
      "historical [2] 5:9 20:18\n",
      "history [8] 16:17 17:1 19:7 21:24\n",
      "34:14,22,25 36:9\n",
      "\n",
      "instance [1] 48:18\n",
      "instances [2] 20:14 28:13\n",
      "instantaneous [1] 44:4\n",
      "instead [2] 8:16 32:19\n",
      "intangible [1] 34:10\n",
      "intended [2] 15:2 44:10\n",
      "intending [1] 46:21\n",
      "interchangeably [1] 10:9\n",
      "interpretation [3] 6:17 20:24 53:\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "interpretations [4] 31:10 47:2,5,7\n",
      "interpreting [1] 15:16\n",
      "interprets [1] 54:21\n",
      "investment [2] 30:6,11\n",
      "irrelevant [1] 10:6\n",
      "IRS [10] 15:15,17 19:12,18,22 40:4,\n",
      "8,12 47:16 58:5\n",
      "\n",
      "IRS's [1] 15:25\n",
      "Isn't [5] 8:17 9:8 10:10 44:14 51:\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "issuance [1] 40:5\n",
      "issue [6] 5:16 10:14,18 20:11 39:2\n",
      "40:17\n",
      "\n",
      "issued [12] 17:22 19:19,25 26:19\n",
      "29:15,23,25 30:8 32:10 38:15 39:\n",
      "\n",
      "Home [2] 40:22 41:17\n",
      "9 40:13\n",
      "honesty [1] 19:14\n",
      "issues [2] 28:25 33:1\n",
      "Honor [7] 4:10 7:6 17:20 25:15 27: issuing [1] 35:4\n",
      "10 29:13 43:24\n",
      "items [1] 12:16\n",
      "Honor's [5] 10:21 11:12,12 12:20 itself [1] 5:16\n",
      "25:23\n",
      "\n",
      "Hospitals [1] 33:19\n",
      "host [1] 15:21\n",
      "hundred [1] 11:7\n",
      "hundreds [1] 56:23\n",
      "\n",
      "I\n",
      "idea [2] 30:8 53:24\n",
      "identical [1] 36:1\n",
      "identified [1] 17:20\n",
      "identify [1] 56:12\n",
      "idle [1] 13:25\n",
      "imagine [1] 45:5\n",
      "immediately [1] 39:19\n",
      "impact [1] 27:3\n",
      "impermissible [1] 16:14\n",
      "import [1] 33:11\n",
      "important [1] 32:4\n",
      "in-kind [5] 5:14 31:6 50:15 52:16,\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "include [7] 5:6 11:25 15:18 19:25\n",
      "36:6 51:2,23\n",
      "\n",
      "included [4] 17:18 36:13 52:15,18\n",
      "includes [1] 43:6\n",
      "including [3] 5:22 6:21,22\n",
      "income [7] 38:1,2,4 39:7 55:18,22,\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "incompatible [1] 46:25\n",
      "indicated [1] 44:7\n",
      "indicates [1] 43:6\n",
      "Industrial [1] 6:6\n",
      "industries [1] 22:4\n",
      "industry [2] 22:2,7\n",
      "inspiration [1] 18:19\n",
      "\n",
      "J\n",
      "jeopardy [1] 44:15\n",
      "job [1] 36:14\n",
      "Joe [1] 26:12\n",
      "JR [4] 1:17 2:3 3:7 56:7\n",
      "Judge [2] 12:22 13:6\n",
      "judgment [3] 20:7 30:16 58:9\n",
      "Justice [114] 1:20 3:3,9,21,24 4:4,\n",
      "7,24 5:8,25 6:3,24 7:7,12 8:5,12,\n",
      "22,25 9:1,3,21 11:2,16 12:3,6,11\n",
      "13:6,12,24 14:6 15:6,12 16:5,11,\n",
      "16 17:9,17 18:12,21 19:1 21:13,\n",
      "16,22 22:13 23:10 24:7,20 25:6,\n",
      "13,24 26:6,11 27:5 28:6,12,16,20\n",
      "29:7,21 30:2,18,23 31:23 33:9 34:\n",
      "13,18 35:10,20,23 36:21,24 37:14\n",
      "38:6,20 39:15,23 40:1,14 41:17,\n",
      "18 42:9,11,18 43:4,19 44:13 46:1,\n",
      "6 47:11 48:2 49:1,9,15 50:21,22,\n",
      "23,24 51:17,19 52:2,24 53:1,16,22\n",
      "54:3,11,12,16 55:6,11 56:4 57:1,5\n",
      "58:10\n",
      "Justice's [1] 43:20\n",
      "\n",
      "K\n",
      "KAGAN\n",
      "\n",
      "[23] 6:24\n",
      "\n",
      "7:7,12 8:5,12,22,\n",
      "25 9:3,21 11:2,16 21:13,16,23 22:\n",
      "13 23:10 33:9 42:9 43:19 50:21,\n",
      "23 54:11 55:11\n",
      "Kagan's [1] 30:2\n",
      "keep [1] 9:22\n",
      "KENNEDY [16] 3:21,25 4:4,7 18:\n",
      "21 19:1 28:6,12,16,20 29:7,21 36:\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "Sheet 3\n",
      "\n",
      "exclude - KENNEDY\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "62\n",
      "Official\n",
      "�\n",
      "24 46:1,6 52:24\n",
      "key [2] 7:5 22:25\n",
      "kind [3] 8:16 43:12 52:18\n",
      "kinds [9] 22:15 31:5 33:7 39:9 40:\n",
      "23 41:14 48:16 50:4,14\n",
      "known [1] 49:16\n",
      "knows [2] 21:25 28:9\n",
      "KOVNER [47] 1:19 2:6 30:20,21,\n",
      "23 32:2 33:9,17 34:17,20 35:19,\n",
      "22 36:2 37:7,17 38:13,24 39:24\n",
      "40:2 41:2,24 42:16,19 43:19,24\n",
      "44:17 46:5,8 47:21 48:4 49:8,12,\n",
      "21 50:23 51:7,18 52:1,7 53:4,6,19\n",
      "54:1,5,15,17 55:9,20\n",
      "\n",
      "lot [4] 7:14 26:13 47:22 57:25\n",
      "lots [2] 40:16,17\n",
      "lower [1] 57:21\n",
      "LTD [1] 1:3\n",
      "lunches [4] 8:8,14,15 22:16\n",
      "\n",
      "money [99] 3:12,15,17,18 4:3,11,\n",
      "\n",
      "12,17 5:1 6:17 7:1,3,8,10,15 10:2,\n",
      "4,9,23 11:10,13,15,18,23 12:9,23\n",
      "13:15,20 14:3,12,24 15:3,10,17,18,\n",
      "20 16:4,21 19:24 25:20 27:6,9 30:\n",
      "5 31:1,7,13 33:14 34:1 35:13,24\n",
      "M\n",
      "36:3,5,19 37:15,18 38:22 40:19,\n",
      "made [4] 21:24 22:8 23:17 40:8\n",
      "25 41:3,15,23 42:15 43:5 46:17,\n",
      "main [1] 13:7\n",
      "19,22 47:13,14 48:17 49:4,7,18,21,\n",
      "maintain [1] 22:11\n",
      "23 50:5,19 51:2,4,9,24,25 52:3,10,\n",
      "maintained [1] 23:17\n",
      "11,22 53:1,10 54:14 56:16,20,24\n",
      "major [1] 49:11\n",
      "57:2,3,6,7,9,11,19 58:6\n",
      "majority [2] 10:17 17:11\n",
      "morning [1] 3:4\n",
      "manner [1] 24:4\n",
      "most [6] 15:22 20:19 26:25 33:21\n",
      "many [10] 6:8 8:21 10:10 16:23 24: 53:20 54:6\n",
      "L\n",
      "2 34:7 39:10 43:16 57:1,20\n",
      "move [2] 25:10 27:19\n",
      "lack [1] 50:6\n",
      "market [7] 29:3 38:5,11,16 39:1\n",
      "Ms [45] 30:20,23 32:2 33:9,9,17 34:\n",
      "43:1 58:2\n",
      "language [10] 6:13 15:19 17:25\n",
      "17,20 35:19,22 36:2 37:7,17 38:\n",
      "20:23 21:5 31:8 36:6 46:20 52:21 massively [1] 28:2\n",
      "13,24 39:24 40:2 41:2,24 42:16,\n",
      "54:8\n",
      "match [1] 23:12\n",
      "19 43:19,24 44:17 46:5,8 47:21\n",
      "large [1] 27:12\n",
      "matter [8] 1:12 19:9 26:7 27:2,19\n",
      "48:4 49:8,12,21 50:23 51:7,18 52:\n",
      "28:7 38:25 45:14\n",
      "larger [1] 4:18\n",
      "1,7 53:4,6,19 54:1,5,15,17 55:9,20\n",
      "largest [1] 28:22\n",
      "matters [1] 43:18\n",
      "much [9] 10:21 23:1,5,20 24:3 26:\n",
      "last [2] 18:13 25:17\n",
      "matures [1] 9:10\n",
      "23 45:7 47:15 57:21\n",
      "later [6] 17:4,5 33:13 39:19 54:13, max [2] 45:12,20\n",
      "must [2] 18:17,18\n",
      "22\n",
      "maxes [1] 45:19\n",
      "N\n",
      "Laughter [1] 53:5\n",
      "maxing [1] 27:16\n",
      "law [6] 20:4 21:12 22:5 39:2,8 40:4 mean [26] 7:9,24 8:15 9:22 13:14, narrow [2] 26:18 51:11\n",
      "20 19:16 23:1 26:4 33:1,25 37:2,\n",
      "leading [1] 36:9\n",
      "narrower [2] 23:22 24:3\n",
      "15 38:21 42:9 43:12,24 44:5,9 45: nation's [1] 28:22\n",
      "leap [1] 35:12\n",
      "23 47:12,21 48:12 51:8 54:18 56: National [1] 6:6\n",
      "least [1] 18:13\n",
      "17\n",
      "legal [2] 4:1 13:3\n",
      "Nationals [1] 57:23\n",
      "legislates [1] 22:1\n",
      "meaning [16] 3:17 4:16 7:1 17:4,7 natural [2] 23:24 33:11\n",
      "20:25 33:20,24 34:3,6 36:3 46:22 necessarily [2] 26:4 52:8\n",
      "legislation [1] 31:11\n",
      "less [7] 25:11,25 26:2,14 27:6,9 43: 48:19 54:13 55:8,10\n",
      "need [2] 14:4 50:13\n",
      "12\n",
      "needs [3] 8:20 37:8 56:11\n",
      "meanings [1] 35:18\n",
      "level [2] 45:4 48:22\n",
      "means [5] 5:12 7:9 26:1 43:14 53: never [4] 16:3 19:18,19,21\n",
      "1\n",
      "levels [1] 25:3\n",
      "new [3] 19:12,25 24:11\n",
      "levies [1] 3:11\n",
      "Ninety-three [1] 9:5\n",
      "meant [1] 11:24\n",
      "lieu [3] 15:20 16:3,3\n",
      "Nobody [1] 55:22\n",
      "measure [1] 9:15\n",
      "lifetime [2] 36:16 40:20\n",
      "non-cash [1] 31:13\n",
      "Medicaid [1] 45:19\n",
      "light [4] 54:7,8,9,23\n",
      "medium [13] 3:18,24 7:17,21 8:2, non-cash-based [1] 5:13\n",
      "10,11 9:11,13 12:24 13:2 16:1 43: non-publicly [1] 36:24\n",
      "likely [1] 16:20\n",
      "16\n",
      "limitations [3] 38:18 48:5,9\n",
      "non-transferable [1] 36:15\n",
      "line [1] 5:23\n",
      "None [1] 18:4\n",
      "mention [1] 14:22\n",
      "liquid [4] 11:1 31:20 38:11 43:13\n",
      "mentioned [3] 17:17 36:24 40:20 north [1] 23:2\n",
      "liquidate [1] 37:4\n",
      "noted [1] 6:20\n",
      "merchandise [1] 43:7\n",
      "list [1] 28:9\n",
      "notes [1] 4:13\n",
      "method [1] 55:16\n",
      "listed [3] 28:8,14 55:14\n",
      "nothing [2] 30:9 45:21\n",
      "mid-'90s [1] 19:8\n",
      "litigate [1] 20:7\n",
      "might [12] 8:13,14 20:19 28:13 37: number [3] 9:14 25:16 27:21\n",
      "19 40:22,22 47:18,18 51:21 52:3, numerous [2] 21:8 56:13\n",
      "little [3] 11:4 15:1 42:12\n",
      "25\n",
      "LoBue [2] 39:4 40:10\n",
      "O\n",
      "lodging [1] 34:9\n",
      "million [3] 11:6,8,18\n",
      "[3]\n",
      "objective 31:16,18 54:9\n",
      "logical [1] 13:13\n",
      "mind [1] 52:9\n",
      "obtain [3] 4:1 9:17,19\n",
      "logically [1] 33:21\n",
      "minimis [1] 50:3\n",
      "obviously [9] 4:12 9:24 20:12 33:\n",
      "[1]\n",
      "[3]\n",
      "long-standing 19:23\n",
      "minimum 26:12 41:8,14\n",
      "5 37:8 46:10 47:24 53:4 56:10\n",
      "long-time [1] 19:2\n",
      "minus [1] 53:3\n",
      "occasionally [1] 12:13\n",
      "longer [1] 28:22\n",
      "minutes [1] 56:6\n",
      "occur [1] 42:6\n",
      "look [12] 7:3 15:7,8 18:6 22:19 33: mirror [1] 24:21\n",
      "offered [1] 6:8\n",
      "11,15 37:23 38:12 40:11 43:3 48: modern [1] 4:14\n",
      "[2]\n",
      "12\n",
      "moment [7] 21:11 29:15 32:7,9,10, often 14:18 21:25\n",
      "[3] 40:15 42:11,12\n",
      "Okay\n",
      "[2]\n",
      "11,23\n",
      "looking 32:13 51:14\n",
      "old [3] 24:12,15,15\n",
      "looks [1] 40:5\n",
      "Monday [1] 1:10\n",
      "once [4] 38:3 39:15 47:8 55:23\n",
      "lost [1] 47:20\n",
      "monetary [2] 5:6 36:12\n",
      "\n",
      "one [24] 5:5 7:15 9:14 11:5 14:17\n",
      "17:2 19:13 22:18 24:9 27:21 28:\n",
      "21 29:1 30:2,8 33:4 34:21 35:3,13\n",
      "47:6 51:11 52:18 53:7,25 54:4\n",
      "one-page [1] 32:17\n",
      "only [22] 18:1 26:24 31:6 32:1,2,2,\n",
      "6,10,22 33:24 34:3,6,11 37:18,23\n",
      "38:15 45:18 48:8 51:14 53:9,17\n",
      "54:4\n",
      "opinion [1] 16:19\n",
      "opportunity [1] 47:20\n",
      "opposed [2] 17:2 57:3\n",
      "option [27] 8:20 9:10,23 10:6,8 14:\n",
      "3,15 18:15 29:15,23,25 30:10 32:\n",
      "1,16,21 33:2,5 34:4 37:19,22 39:\n",
      "13 40:7,13 41:14 42:8 46:4 49:6\n",
      "options [39] 10:14,17 14:3 16:20\n",
      "19:20 20:12 21:21 22:20 23:13,15\n",
      "24:6,17 25:9,10 26:14,17 27:12\n",
      "29:13 30:7 31:6 32:6,22 33:7 34:\n",
      "16,19 35:2,4,7 37:3 38:14,18 39:3,\n",
      "6,9 44:15 45:14 46:9 49:12 50:17\n",
      "oral [5] 1:12 2:2,5 3:7 30:21\n",
      "order [2] 28:1 33:15\n",
      "orders [1] 43:7\n",
      "original [6] 14:24 15:13,15,24,25\n",
      "23:16\n",
      "other [24] 7:19 8:6,14 9:15,18 11:8\n",
      "22:3 24:2,21 25:1 26:5,16,22 33:7,\n",
      "12 34:7,21 35:9 38:23 41:9 45:9\n",
      "51:9 53:7 57:2\n",
      "others [3] 10:10 11:1 16:24\n",
      "out [14] 8:5 17:3 19:12 25:10,21 27:\n",
      "7,16 36:19,20 45:12,19,20 48:20\n",
      "53:8\n",
      "over [3] 5:1 7:24 46:12\n",
      "overall [4] 11:14 20:20 25:2 27:3\n",
      "overlap [1] 23:8\n",
      "own [2] 7:13 19:4\n",
      "\n",
      "P\n",
      "Pacific [2] 35:3,8\n",
      "PAGE [2] 2:2 34:23\n",
      "paid [2] 12:16 20:6\n",
      "paper [1] 4:13\n",
      "papers [1] 6:5\n",
      "parallel [3] 36:6 48:18,21\n",
      "part [4] 24:17 27:1 45:18,19\n",
      "particular [3] 31:5 33:4 47:23\n",
      "particularly [2] 37:1 53:11\n",
      "parties [1] 20:3\n",
      "partly [1] 8:12\n",
      "parts [1] 30:25\n",
      "party [1] 18:2\n",
      "passes [1] 40:20\n",
      "pay [8] 20:8 25:8,8 26:14 27:7 35:5\n",
      "58:6,7\n",
      "\n",
      "paying [10] 16:24 17:13 18:14,18\n",
      "19:9 20:17 31:19 34:16,18 35:2\n",
      "\n",
      "payment [2] 45:25 46:11\n",
      "payments [2] 15:23 31:2\n",
      "payroll [3] 3:12 25:9 34:19\n",
      "pays [3] 26:6,8,11\n",
      "peculiar [2] 15:1 19:14\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "Sheet 4\n",
      "\n",
      "KENNEDY - peculiar\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "63\n",
      "Official\n",
      "�\n",
      "pension [5] 22:4,11 24:8,22 44:24\n",
      "pensioners [2] 25:24 26:1\n",
      "pensions [1] 22:9\n",
      "people [2] 19:3 26:13\n",
      "percent [4] 9:5 23:3,3 32:12\n",
      "percolate [1] 8:20\n",
      "perhaps [2] 17:4 43:8\n",
      "period [1] 20:16\n",
      "permissible [1] 33:20\n",
      "person [2] 42:1,2\n",
      "Petitioners [7] 1:4,18 2:4,10 3:8\n",
      "20:10 56:8\n",
      "\n",
      "Petitioners' [1] 46:25\n",
      "phrase [4] 31:1 33:15 51:24 52:10\n",
      "pick [1] 51:24\n",
      "pieces [1] 41:4\n",
      "place [2] 7:25 27:22\n",
      "places [3] 23:9 53:23 56:23\n",
      "plain [3] 3:17 4:16 18:9\n",
      "plans [1] 6:9\n",
      "please [3] 3:10 30:24 32:20\n",
      "plus [1] 11:7\n",
      "point [25] 4:5 13:5,7 14:17 15:14\n",
      "17:1,11 20:2 25:17 26:9,22 27:8,\n",
      "17 32:4 38:12,14 39:20 40:5,6,6,\n",
      "13 42:24 57:10,16 58:3\n",
      "points [7] 14:5 17:3 25:16 40:11\n",
      "44:18 48:20 56:10\n",
      "portion [1] 26:24\n",
      "posing [1] 46:14\n",
      "positing [1] 27:10\n",
      "position [3] 18:8 19:4,23\n",
      "Posner [1] 12:22\n",
      "Posner's [1] 13:7\n",
      "possibility [1] 46:2\n",
      "possible [1] 46:9\n",
      "practical [3] 27:2,18 28:5\n",
      "practice [3] 19:3 20:18 22:6\n",
      "preamble [1] 48:12\n",
      "predecessor [2] 31:11 51:16\n",
      "predominant [1] 43:16\n",
      "presented [1] 3:13\n",
      "presents [2] 5:16 50:17\n",
      "preserve [1] 25:1\n",
      "President [1] 21:11\n",
      "pretty [7] 10:21 23:20 39:2 40:3 43:\n",
      "2,5 56:21\n",
      "previously [1] 33:22\n",
      "price [7] 28:9 29:3,14,17,22,22 30:\n",
      "1\n",
      "principles [1] 39:5\n",
      "printing [1] 27:25\n",
      "prior [2] 55:10,12\n",
      "private [1] 37:13\n",
      "privately [1] 55:13\n",
      "privately-held [1] 38:10\n",
      "privately-traded [2] 37:11,25\n",
      "problem [2] 40:16 42:20\n",
      "problems [1] 29:1\n",
      "promptly [1] 10:15\n",
      "promulgated [1] 15:9\n",
      "property [4] 5:15 30:6,12 34:11\n",
      "proposition [1] 13:4\n",
      "provide [2] 15:21 44:10\n",
      "\n",
      "provided [1] 47:22\n",
      "reason [6] 3:17 14:13 21:19,23 24:\n",
      "19 46:10\n",
      "provides [1] 23:4\n",
      "providing [2] 31:16 54:9\n",
      "reasonable [8] 48:8 50:11 53:9,17,\n",
      "provision [5] 4:18 14:11 25:19 55: 20,25 54:4,6\n",
      "10 56:11\n",
      "reasonably [1] 51:23\n",
      "provisions [7] 33:23 50:9 52:13\n",
      "reasons [5] 21:18 24:9 27:21 30:\n",
      "54:23 55:3 56:13 57:2\n",
      "\n",
      "15 45:17\n",
      "\n",
      "public [1] 37:12\n",
      "publicly [6] 28:10,17,23,24 29:4\n",
      "\n",
      "retirees [1] 23:5\n",
      "Retirement [13] 3:11 16:19 17:21,\n",
      "24 18:6 19:21 22:24 23:4,7 24:1\n",
      "31:17 44:11 46:15\n",
      "retires [1] 46:3\n",
      "revenues [1] 27:3\n",
      "reverse [1] 30:16\n",
      "reversed [1] 58:9\n",
      "richer [1] 12:15\n",
      "rid [1] 19:23\n",
      "riding [1] 40:21\n",
      "risk [1] 24:9\n",
      "road [2] 29:19 30:10\n",
      "ROBERTS [17] 3:3 30:18 36:21 37:\n",
      "14 41:18 42:11,18 50:22,24 51:17,\n",
      "19 52:2 53:16,22 54:3 56:4 58:10\n",
      "Rockies [1] 57:24\n",
      "Roosevelt [1] 21:11\n",
      "RRB [1] 47:2\n",
      "RRTA [19] 19:16 26:22 31:4 33:8\n",
      "35:8 36:5,7,10,19 38:5 44:22,23\n",
      "45:18 48:7 49:14,24 50:5,16 56:1\n",
      "RRTA's [1] 45:11\n",
      "\n",
      "REBUTTAL [2] 2:8 56:7\n",
      "receive [2] 26:13 46:3\n",
      "49:16\n",
      "received [1] 36:10\n",
      "publicly-traded [3] 37:9,21 39:25 receives [2] 42:1,5\n",
      "purchase [2] 6:8 29:18\n",
      "receiving [2] 27:12 44:3\n",
      "pure [1] 27:20\n",
      "recent [1] 47:13\n",
      "purpose [4] 5:4 37:25 38:5 44:6\n",
      "recently [2] 16:25 19:4\n",
      "purposes [4] 21:18 55:21,23,25\n",
      "recipient [1] 13:8\n",
      "put [8] 6:13,14 7:18 11:23 13:19\n",
      "recognize [1] 5:21\n",
      "25:14 52:13,21\n",
      "recognized [1] 49:11\n",
      "puts [1] 57:11\n",
      "record [5] 5:9 10:13,16 32:13,18\n",
      "putting [1] 25:17\n",
      "recount [1] 34:25\n",
      "reduced [2] 38:22 40:18\n",
      "Q\n",
      "reducible [2] 52:5,6\n",
      "qualified [4] 14:2,15 33:2 34:4\n",
      "refers [2] 9:13 31:2\n",
      "qualifies [1] 36:23\n",
      "reflect [2] 20:18 22:6\n",
      "qualify [3] 40:25 41:15 50:19\n",
      "reflection [1] 17:6\n",
      "S\n",
      "quarreling [1] 26:9\n",
      "refunds [1] 20:15\n",
      "[23]\n",
      "[1]\n",
      "question\n",
      "3:13 7:20 10:1,7,7,\n",
      "safety 36:14\n",
      "regard [1] 25:16\n",
      "21 11:3,12,17,20 12:20 18:22 20: regarding [1] 34:21\n",
      "salary [4] 15:22 27:12,14 46:4\n",
      "8 21:17 22:18 25:23 28:21 39:16\n",
      "same [16] 5:3,16 19:16 27:7 39:5\n",
      "[1]\n",
      "regime 24:23\n",
      "43:20 50:14 55:7 57:8,13\n",
      "42:7 45:2,3,6,7 48:22,23 49:13 50:\n",
      "regimes [1] 24:2\n",
      "questions [5] 24:23 30:3 55:13 56: regulation [23] 15:13,15,16,24 16: 15 55:18 57:5\n",
      "[1]\n",
      "2 58:8\n",
      "14,18,22 17:5,5,17,21 18:10 19:12, satellite 28:13\n",
      "[1] 39:3\n",
      "quite [5] 7:2 8:5 20:4 35:2 49:9\n",
      "satisfy\n",
      "14,19 20:1 43:3 47:13,17,22 48:3,\n",
      "savings [1] 4:8\n",
      "5 49:17\n",
      "R\n",
      "saying [13] 9:22,25 16:24 18:13 19:\n",
      "[9] 15:9 31:12 40:14\n",
      "regulations\n",
      "RACHEL [3] 1:19 2:6 30:21\n",
      "19 22:14,19 25:25 48:14 51:20 53:\n",
      "47:12,25 49:3 53:12,13,24\n",
      "rail's [1] 36:16\n",
      "1 54:3 55:15\n",
      "[2]\n",
      "Railroad [36] 3:11,12 4:21 5:11,17, relevant 10:1 14:8\n",
      "says [9] 13:21 15:15,16 16:20 17:\n",
      "[1] 15:4\n",
      "remained\n",
      "21 6:14 16:19 17:12,21,24 18:6\n",
      "24,25 19:15 39:8 47:13\n",
      "remains [1] 25:22\n",
      "19:20 20:21,23 21:7,20 22:1,7,9,\n",
      "[1] 54:19\n",
      "Scalia\n",
      "[1]\n",
      "remunerates 8:6\n",
      "22,23 23:2,4,22 24:8 25:7,18 28:\n",
      "[7]\n",
      "remuneration [59] 3:13,14,15 4:3, scheme 7:8,20,22 8:1 24:10,11,\n",
      "21,24 31:17,24 36:8 44:11 46:15\n",
      "49:4\n",
      "railroad's [1] 45:22\n",
      "Railroads [12] 5:13 6:8 17:12 18:\n",
      "14 19:9 20:5,17 22:3 25:10 27:19\n",
      "34:15 35:9\n",
      "rails [1] 40:21\n",
      "rank-and-file [1] 26:20\n",
      "rate [6] 23:2 26:4 44:22 45:3,6 48:\n",
      "23\n",
      "rates [3] 23:1 24:25 25:3\n",
      "rather [2] 20:7 55:3\n",
      "ratification [1] 53:12\n",
      "reach [3] 31:13 50:14 56:19\n",
      "reaches [1] 53:15\n",
      "read [5] 5:5 16:6,8,9 48:8\n",
      "readily [21] 5:7 31:3 32:7,23 34:2\n",
      "36:12 38:4,10,16,25 40:19 41:4,5,\n",
      "19,25 42:7,22 43:1 50:18 52:4,5\n",
      "reading [8] 14:20 17:2 34:2 49:17\n",
      "53:20 54:7 55:2,4\n",
      "real [1] 44:14\n",
      "really [5] 7:7 32:3 45:13 46:24 48:\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "11,12,17 5:18,22 6:10,18,20,22 7:\n",
      "3,9,10,19 10:4 14:12,24 15:3,10\n",
      "16:21,21 18:1 19:24 24:18 26:25\n",
      "31:2,7,13,25 33:14 35:13,24 37:\n",
      "16,18 40:25 41:3,15,23 42:15 43:\n",
      "6 46:18 49:4,7,18,23 50:18,20 51:\n",
      "2,3,4 52:11 53:2 54:14 57:3,6,7\n",
      "render [1] 14:11\n",
      "renders [1] 14:10\n",
      "repeatedly [2] 47:4,9\n",
      "replace [1] 47:17\n",
      "report [1] 6:5\n",
      "required [1] 49:7\n",
      "requirement [1] 16:2\n",
      "requires [2] 49:5 58:5\n",
      "reserve [1] 30:16\n",
      "resolves [1] 55:9\n",
      "respect [5] 21:21 30:3 37:10 38:\n",
      "13 44:18\n",
      "respects [1] 22:25\n",
      "Respondent [4] 1:7,21 2:7 30:22\n",
      "response [3] 13:12 16:7 44:21\n",
      "rest [1] 45:25\n",
      "retained [1] 10:18\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "scope [1] 31:8\n",
      "Second [9] 31:9 40:6 41:5,8 44:23\n",
      "45:20 55:5 56:25 57:16\n",
      "\n",
      "Security [3] 22:25 26:23 45:1\n",
      "see [6] 7:24 32:13 34:23 35:6 51:\n",
      "13 52:12\n",
      "\n",
      "seeking [1] 20:14\n",
      "seems [4] 24:13 47:16,19 49:18\n",
      "seen [1] 34:20\n",
      "self-adjusting [1] 26:1\n",
      "self-adjusts [2] 25:20 44:22\n",
      "self-supporting [1] 31:17\n",
      "self-sustaining [2] 44:10 54:10\n",
      "sell [3] 42:3 57:24 58:1\n",
      "senior [2] 26:19,20\n",
      "sense [10] 11:25 12:2 13:16 31:7\n",
      "34:11 48:24 52:12,23 55:3,5\n",
      "\n",
      "serves [2] 5:3 31:20\n",
      "services [2] 9:17,20\n",
      "set [2] 29:25 39:5\n",
      "seven [1] 29:19\n",
      "Seventh [3] 12:7,20,21\n",
      "several [1] 20:2\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "Sheet 5\n",
      "\n",
      "pension - several\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "64\n",
      "Official\n",
      "�\n",
      "share [2] 13:9 28:3\n",
      "shareholders [1] 28:3\n",
      "shares [3] 3:14 27:25 58:1\n",
      "sharp [1] 30:13\n",
      "shed [1] 54:23\n",
      "short [1] 25:22\n",
      "shows [3] 5:9 10:14,16\n",
      "side [2] 34:21 51:9\n",
      "signaling [1] 33:6\n",
      "signed [1] 21:12\n",
      "significant [1] 56:22\n",
      "Silk [1] 44:8\n",
      "similarities [1] 23:8\n",
      "simple [1] 3:16\n",
      "simply [3] 24:24 32:18 57:6\n",
      "simultaneously [2] 6:16 21:2\n",
      "since [4] 21:9 53:14 54:8 58:4\n",
      "situation [1] 28:23\n",
      "six [1] 29:18\n",
      "slippery [1] 4:5\n",
      "slope [1] 4:5\n",
      "small [1] 28:13\n",
      "smaller [1] 45:7\n",
      "so-called [1] 29:17\n",
      "Social [3] 22:25 26:23 45:1\n",
      "sold [6] 10:19,22,25 13:22 57:18,\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "Solicitor [1] 1:19\n",
      "solvency [1] 24:24\n",
      "solvent [1] 25:22\n",
      "somebody [1] 41:21\n",
      "Somebody's [1] 37:24\n",
      "Someone [3] 26:6,8 51:21\n",
      "somewhat [1] 43:8\n",
      "somewhere [1] 27:24\n",
      "sort [12] 35:18 36:11,15 39:8 40:3,\n",
      "8 41:12,16 44:24 50:5 52:14,20\n",
      "SOTOMAYOR [23] 12:3,6,11 16:\n",
      "16 17:9 24:7,21 25:6,13,24 26:6,\n",
      "11 27:5 34:13,18 35:10,20,23 49:\n",
      "1,9,15 57:1,5\n",
      "specific [3] 48:5,8 50:9\n",
      "specifically [2] 14:1 22:1\n",
      "spill-over [1] 56:22\n",
      "spoken [1] 53:7\n",
      "Sports [1] 40:21\n",
      "stable [1] 31:16\n",
      "stands [1] 30:12\n",
      "start [3] 24:13 27:25 35:4\n",
      "starts [1] 39:3\n",
      "state [1] 20:4\n",
      "STATES [5] 1:1,6,14 3:5 44:7\n",
      "statute [40] 4:21 5:10 6:11,14 11:\n",
      "21,24 13:20 14:25 15:4,16 16:15\n",
      "20:21 21:7 25:19,23 30:25 33:3,\n",
      "16 34:12 35:14 44:6,8,9 46:24 47:\n",
      "2,4,9 48:6,11,15 51:1,18 52:17 53:\n",
      "11,21 54:7,22 56:17,20 57:11\n",
      "statute's [7] 17:12 20:23 31:4,7,\n",
      "15 34:22 51:10\n",
      "statutes [8] 21:1 31:10 47:14 48:\n",
      "18,21 50:11 54:21 55:2\n",
      "statutory [2] 17:25 23:18\n",
      "still [5] 23:10 38:9 39:22 47:25 53:\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "stock [103] 3:14,17,19 5:2,22 6:1,8\n",
      "7:21,25 8:17,20,24 9:4,7,9,10,23\n",
      "10:6,8,18 11:18 13:1,10 14:3,3,15,\n",
      "16 16:3,10,20 17:13 18:1,7,15 19:\n",
      "19,20,25 20:11,12 21:21 22:20 23:\n",
      "13,15 24:6,15,17 25:9,10 26:14,17\n",
      "27:12,15,23 28:1,22,25 29:3,16,18\n",
      "30:4 31:5,20 32:1,5,16,19 33:2,5,\n",
      "7 34:3,4 35:2,7 36:23,25 37:1,4,6,\n",
      "9,11,20,21 38:2,10 39:25 43:13\n",
      "44:15 45:25 46:14 47:23 49:6 50:\n",
      "17 51:2,12,24 52:3,8 53:7 56:17,\n",
      "21 57:12 58:1,7\n",
      "stock-based [3] 11:6 27:20 45:14\n",
      "stocks [4] 28:8,11 30:11 31:14\n",
      "stood [1] 34:1\n",
      "stop [1] 45:21\n",
      "store [3] 9:23 10:6 43:11\n",
      "straightforward [1] 18:10\n",
      "strange [1] 45:5\n",
      "stretch [1] 54:4\n",
      "strike [3] 29:17,21 30:1\n",
      "strongly [4] 15:14,24 18:8 20:24\n",
      "structure [3] 22:12 24:22 25:2\n",
      "subject [4] 14:2 26:25 33:8 44:16\n",
      "submitted [1] 58:11\n",
      "subsequently [1] 33:22\n",
      "suffices [2] 41:7,10\n",
      "sufficiently [1] 6:4\n",
      "suggest [1] 15:10\n",
      "suggested [1] 52:4\n",
      "suggesting [1] 49:19\n",
      "suggests [1] 46:21\n",
      "suit [2] 35:5,7\n",
      "supplemental [1] 44:24\n",
      "supports [5] 15:14,24 17:2 18:8\n",
      "20:24\n",
      "suppose [3] 16:12 36:25 42:9\n",
      "supposed [1] 37:5\n",
      "SUPREME [2] 1:1,13\n",
      "surplusage [2] 14:11,20\n",
      "surrounding [1] 46:19\n",
      "suspect [1] 20:6\n",
      "sweep [2] 13:21 20:21\n",
      "sweeps [1] 6:19\n",
      "swept [1] 10:22\n",
      "synonymous [1] 11:13\n",
      "system [26] 21:20 22:4,22,24,24\n",
      "23:4,20,22 24:8,15 25:14,17,18,22\n",
      "26:1,10 27:6,10,20 31:17 44:10,\n",
      "15,25 45:11 46:15 54:10\n",
      "systems [2] 23:7 24:1\n",
      "\n",
      "T\n",
      "talked\n",
      "talks [1] 48:5\n",
      "tamper [1] 15:2\n",
      "tandem [2] 48:25 50:12\n",
      "Tax [51] 3:11,12 4:18,19,20 11:21,\n",
      "[2] 6:7,25\n",
      "\n",
      "24 14:2 16:18,24 17:13 18:14 19:\n",
      "9,21 20:6,8,15,17,21 21:5 23:1,2,\n",
      "19,22,25 24:3,25 25:3 27:1,3,4,17\n",
      "38:1 39:7 44:16,22 45:2,6,7,7,18\n",
      "\n",
      "48:23 55:18,22,24 56:1,11,16,20\n",
      "57:11 58:4\n",
      "taxable [8] 18:23 19:5,20 22:21,22\n",
      "35:8 46:14 55:17\n",
      "taxation [1] 33:8\n",
      "taxed [1] 46:10\n",
      "taxes [8] 25:8,9 31:19 34:19 35:2,\n",
      "5 58:6,7\n",
      "taxpayers [2] 58:6,7\n",
      "technology [1] 40:22\n",
      "tend [1] 38:18\n",
      "tends [2] 7:14,15\n",
      "term [8] 7:1,2,5 20:13 46:17,22 54:\n",
      "22 55:1\n",
      "test [1] 11:3\n",
      "text [5] 6:21 21:17 23:18 31:4 52:\n",
      "12\n",
      "textbook [1] 29:4\n",
      "textual [1] 21:1\n",
      "there's [15] 7:13 13:7 18:20 28:3,9\n",
      "32:17 38:11 39:1,16 40:3 45:20\n",
      "46:20 50:6 54:21 57:12\n",
      "therefore [1] 8:9\n",
      "third [4] 31:15 46:1,2 58:3\n",
      "THOMAS [5] 1:17 2:3,9 3:7 56:7\n",
      "thorny [1] 29:1\n",
      "though [4] 21:7 38:7,21 40:16\n",
      "thousand [1] 11:7\n",
      "threat [1] 46:15\n",
      "Three [1] 30:25\n",
      "tickets [3] 40:21 57:22,23\n",
      "tier [5] 44:23,25 45:2 48:23,24\n",
      "today [9] 4:23 5:16 21:10 24:4 29:\n",
      "9 48:7 53:9 56:15,23\n",
      "together [1] 55:2\n",
      "tolerate [1] 28:4\n",
      "top [1] 27:15\n",
      "traces [1] 23:15\n",
      "traded [7] 28:11,18,23,24 29:4 36:\n",
      "25 49:16\n",
      "trading [1] 29:16\n",
      "transaction [1] 57:21\n",
      "transferring [1] 4:14\n",
      "transfers [1] 3:25\n",
      "transportation [2] 5:15 52:19\n",
      "travel [1] 36:16\n",
      "Treasury [2] 16:23 47:3\n",
      "treat [2] 18:1 19:15\n",
      "treated [5] 32:6 45:15 49:13 50:7,\n",
      "15\n",
      "treating [1] 18:15\n",
      "treatise [1] 54:20\n",
      "treatment [3] 18:7 23:13,15\n",
      "treatments [1] 24:5\n",
      "triggered [1] 18:19\n",
      "true [5] 4:19 37:12 42:1 44:23,25\n",
      "turns [1] 8:23\n",
      "two [13] 11:4,7 21:1 23:6 24:1,2 35:\n",
      "16,18 40:11 41:4 45:17 47:25 57:\n",
      "23\n",
      "type [1] 33:4\n",
      "types [2] 5:18,22\n",
      "Typically [1] 4:11\n",
      "\n",
      "U\n",
      "U.S [3] 4:8 16:18 21:10\n",
      "unaltered [2] 15:4 21:10\n",
      "unambiguously [1] 57:12\n",
      "uncommon [1] 45:24\n",
      "under [24] 10:20 14:11,20 17:16,\n",
      "25 18:9 19:20 33:8 35:8 36:23 39:\n",
      "6 44:22 47:14 48:11,23,23,24 49:\n",
      "7,13,14,25 50:5,8,16\n",
      "underfunded [1] 24:13\n",
      "underlying [1] 25:4\n",
      "undermine [1] 45:11\n",
      "undermined [1] 31:18\n",
      "underscores [2] 6:17 15:25\n",
      "understand [3] 22:13 27:5 51:21\n",
      "understanding [4] 16:1 19:24 33:\n",
      "6 54:25\n",
      "understood [4] 17:6 52:22 55:17\n",
      "57:7\n",
      "Union [2] 35:3,8\n",
      "UNITED [5] 1:1,6,13 3:5 44:7\n",
      "University [1] 33:19\n",
      "Unless [1] 58:8\n",
      "unlike [1] 22:3\n",
      "unlimited [1] 36:15\n",
      "unrealistic [1] 46:7\n",
      "until [6] 16:25 19:4 20:11 35:5 38:\n",
      "7 46:2\n",
      "up [5] 19:7 20:13 26:4 34:1 36:9\n",
      "uses [1] 56:16\n",
      "utilizes [1] 23:23\n",
      "\n",
      "V\n",
      "valuation [1] 29:1\n",
      "value [31] 9:14,15 11:25 18:3 28:2,\n",
      "17 29:2 30:7,12,14 32:8,12,20 36:\n",
      "12,13,18 37:22,23,24 38:2,5,11,16\n",
      "39:1,13 43:1,23 49:5,17 52:5 55:\n",
      "25\n",
      "valued [10] 6:23 10:24 13:22 31:3\n",
      "32:22 38:21 41:5 55:21,23 57:18\n",
      "valuing [2] 38:3 39:6\n",
      "variety [6] 5:12,17,21 36:11 43:15\n",
      "50:8\n",
      "various [2] 52:14,16\n",
      "vast [1] 17:11\n",
      "version [1] 52:17\n",
      "versions [4] 51:16 52:14,15,20\n",
      "versus [5] 3:5 33:19 39:4 40:10 44:\n",
      "8\n",
      "vest [1] 20:13\n",
      "vested [1] 30:10\n",
      "vesting [1] 38:8\n",
      "vests [2] 39:16,19\n",
      "view [5] 12:25 14:9 15:25 40:2 41:\n",
      "1\n",
      "viewed [1] 4:18\n",
      "Virginia [1] 33:18\n",
      "virtually [2] 6:15 21:2\n",
      "virtue [1] 27:14\n",
      "volatile [2] 37:2,20\n",
      "voucher [3] 42:16,20 43:9\n",
      "vouchers [1] 42:25\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "Sheet 6\n",
      "\n",
      "share - vouchers\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "65\n",
      "Official\n",
      "�\n",
      "W\n",
      "\t\n",
      "wage [2] 26:12,23\n",
      "wage-based [1] 23:19\n",
      "wages [5] 19:15 35:14,24 49:4,19\n",
      "wait [2] 38:6,22\n",
      "waiting [1] 23:11\n",
      "waits [1] 46:2\n",
      "wanted [2] 25:1 51:22\n",
      "Washington [3] 1:9,17,20\n",
      "way [14] 5:23 6:24 8:5 13:23 15:4\n",
      "17:22 28:3 29:13 42:7 48:6,8 49:\n",
      "17 51:3 53:7\n",
      "ways [3] 4:14 48:1 51:13\n",
      "wealth [2] 11:14 12:1\n",
      "well-recognized [1] 6:10\n",
      "West [1] 33:18\n",
      "whatever [2] 47:6,14\n",
      "wheat [9] 41:19,22 42:3,5,13,17,21\n",
      "43:9,22\n",
      "whereas [2] 23:3 36:19\n",
      "Whereupon [1] 58:12\n",
      "whether [8] 3:14 13:8 35:7 38:25\n",
      "39:12 47:7 50:14,17\n",
      "who's [2] 12:15,15\n",
      "whoever [1] 51:1\n",
      "whole [3] 4:19 33:16 56:12\n",
      "will [7] 18:1 22:10 26:2 29:5 39:13,\n",
      "17 58:6\n",
      "win [1] 18:11\n",
      "wine [1] 12:12\n",
      "WISCONSIN [2] 1:3 3:5\n",
      "within [1] 57:18\n",
      "without [1] 16:24\n",
      "word [9] 7:18 11:23 13:19 46:19\n",
      "53:10 56:16,20,24 57:11\n",
      "words [14] 7:19 8:6 9:15,18 16:2\n",
      "21:9 24:21 25:1 26:5,17 33:12 35:\n",
      "17 36:1 57:2\n",
      "work [6] 14:21 31:24 47:15 49:22,\n",
      "22 55:13\n",
      "worked [1] 29:14\n",
      "worker [1] 31:25\n",
      "workers [3] 31:18 36:8 44:11\n",
      "works [1] 8:5\n",
      "worth [4] 13:15,17 30:9,9\n",
      "written [1] 22:5\n",
      "wrote [1] 51:1\n",
      "\n",
      "Y\n",
      "\t\n",
      "year\n",
      "20:15 29:16\n",
      "years [14] 8:21 14:24 15:5 18:14,\n",
      "[3] 13:1\n",
      "\n",
      "18 20:3,9,13,20 21:9 23:18 29:19\n",
      "30:10 39:18\n",
      "yourself [1] 49:10\n",
      "\n",
      "Z\n",
      "\t\n",
      "zero [1] 29:16\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "Sheet 7\n",
      "\n",
      "wage - zero\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "\n"
     ]
    }
   ],
   "source": [
    "t = [text,text1]\n",
    "print(text)"
   ]
  },
  {
   "cell_type": "code",
   "execution_count": 12,
   "metadata": {},
   "outputs": [
    {
     "name": "stdout",
     "output_type": "stream",
     "text": [
      "SUPREME COURT\n",
      " OF THE UNITED STATES\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "IN THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "------------------\n",
      "\n",
      "MOUNT LEMMON FIRE DISTRICT,\n",
      "\n",
      ")\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Petitioner,\n",
      "\n",
      ")\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "v.\n",
      "\n",
      ") No. 17-587\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "JOHN GUIDO, ET AL.,\n",
      "\n",
      ")\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Respondents.\n",
      "\n",
      ")\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "------------------\n",
      "\n",
      "Pages: 1 through 58\n",
      "\n",
      "Place: Washington, D.C.\n",
      "\n",
      "Date: October 1, 2018\n",
      "\n",
      "HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION\n",
      "Official Reporters 1220 L Street, N.W., Suite 206\n",
      "Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 628-4888\n",
      "www.hrccourtreporters.com\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "IN THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 ------------------\n",
      "\n",
      "3 MOUNT LEMMON FIRE DISTRICT,\n",
      "\n",
      ")\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "Petitioner,\n",
      "\n",
      ")\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "v.\n",
      "\n",
      ") No. 17-587\n",
      "\n",
      "6 JOHN GUIDO, ET AL.,\n",
      "\n",
      ")\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "Respondents.\n",
      "\n",
      ")\n",
      "\n",
      "8 ------------------\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "Washington, D.C.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "Monday, October 1, 2018\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "The above-entitled matter came on for oral\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 argument before the Supreme Court of the United States\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 at 11:09 a.m.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "16 APPEARANCES:\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 E. JOSHUA ROSENKRANZ, ESQ., New York, New York; on\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "behalf of the Petitioner.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 JEFFREY L. FISHER, ESQ., Stanford, California; on\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "behalf of the Respondents.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 JONATHAN C. BOND, Assistant to the Solicitor General,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "Department of Justice, Washington, D.C.; for\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "the United States, as amicus curiae, supporting\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "Respondents.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "CONTENTS\n",
      "\n",
      "2 ORAL ARGUMENT OF:\n",
      "\n",
      "PAGE:\n",
      "\n",
      "3 E. JOSHUA ROSENKRANZ, ESQ.\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "On behalf of the Petitioner\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "5 ORAL ARGUMENT OF:\n",
      "\n",
      "6 JEFFREY L. FISHER, ESQ.\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "On behalf of the Respondents\n",
      "\n",
      "26\n",
      "\n",
      "8 ORAL ARGUMENT OF:\n",
      "\n",
      "9 JONATHAN C. BOND\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "On behalf of the United States, as\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "amicus curiae, supporting Respondents 44\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF:\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 E. JOSHUA ROSENKRANZ, ESQ.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "On behalf of the Petitioner\n",
      "\n",
      "55\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "P R O C E E D I N G S\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "(11:09 a.m.)\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: We'll hear\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 argument next in Case 17-587, the Mount Lemmon\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 Fire District versus Guido.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "Mr. Rosenkranz.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "ORAL ARGUMENT OF E. JOSHUA ROSENKRANZ\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: Mr. Chief Justice,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 and may it please the Court:\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "The Ninth Circuit fixated on two words\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 in a two-sentence definition of \"employer.\" It\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 ignored how the second sentence relates back to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 the first. It jumped right to the second half\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 of the second sentence without considering the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 first half. And it ignored how all of this\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 relates to the foundational definition on which\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 the definition of \"employer\" is built.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "Now, predictably, that wreaks havoc\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 with the statutory scheme, most notably, by\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 stripping public employees of crucial\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 protections like respondeat superior, and also\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 by treating public employers worse than private\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 ones in a statute whose purpose was to bring\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 parity to the two.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "Now, as our brief explains, the best\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 way to read the statute is from beginning to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 end, but let me just start right in the middle,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 as my colleagues do, with the -- with the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 phrase that is causing all this mischief, \"also\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 means.\"\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "Respondents do not dispute that that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 term can have two alternative meanings. It\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 could mean in addition, there's an additional\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 universe beyond that which is defined in the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 first sentence. Or it could mean further\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 elaboration of the preceding definition, along\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 the lines of \"moreover\" or \"incorporates.\"\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "So how do we know which one is\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 intended?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "The rest of the context makes clear,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 and in particular, there are five separate\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 statutory signals, any one of which pushes the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 reading in the direction that we've proposed,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 aided by two canons of construction and the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 interest in making sense out of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 anti-discrimination law. So let me start\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 with -\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE GINSBURG: Mr. Rosenkranz,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 what you -- what you say about making sense,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "1 perhaps Congress should have used the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 formulation that was used in Title VII, where\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 it's clear, Title VII is absolutely clear, the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 numerosity requirement goes to private and\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 public employers.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "But this statute, ADEA, picks up on\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 the language of the Fair Labor Standards Act,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 which has no numerosity requirement. So\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 perhaps Congress should have done what you -\n",
      "\n",
      "10 you suggest, but by -- by using the Fair Labor\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 Standards Act language, rather than Title VII\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 language, because they wanted to do what Title\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 VII had done in 1972, they wanted to do that in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 1974, why didn't they use the Title VII\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 language?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: Well, Your Honor, let\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 me start with the premise and then turn to the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 ultimate question. The premise of the -- of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 Your Honor's question is that Congress used the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 definition from the FLSA.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "I urge the Court to look at the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 definition in the FLSA. It is on the first\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 page of the government's statutory appendix.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 It is entirely different from this definition.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "Why did Congress use a different\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "1 approach from Title VII when everyone\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 understood, at least everyone who was talking\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 about it understood, that the purpose was to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 mimic what Title VII did?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "I am attributing rationality to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 someone who was obviously not doing his job\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 very well, but Title VII began with different\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 language, pre-amendment, from the language in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 the ADEA. Title VII began with language that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 was not as expansive about the definition of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 person, so here we have an extremely expansive\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 definition in ADEA, or \"any organized group of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 persons.\"\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "It is the most expansive definition\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 this Court has ever seen of \"person.\"\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: Expansive in only\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 one -- expansive in only one way. That entire\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 list up to the disputed \"any organized group of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 persons\" all apply to private entities.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: No, not at all, Your\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 Honor.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: So set that at -\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: No, Justice\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 Sotomayor. Corporations -- this Court has held\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 in at least five cases that \"corporations\"\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "1 includes municipal corporations. This language\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 in every statute -- put aside those last four\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 words, corporations and associations, every\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 time this Court has encountered that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 phraseology, it has concluded that -- that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 political subdivisions are persons. It did it\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 in Ricketts. It did it in City of Chattanooga.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 It did it even without a definition in cases\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 like Monell and in the federal -- in the False\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 Claims Act -\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Well, but here\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 it's not just persons; it's organized groups of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 persons, and it's in a list of things that says\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 partnerships, associations, labor\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 organizations, corporations, and organized\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 groups of persons.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "I just don't think it's a natural\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 reading to say, what, I belong to the City of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 Bethesda. List organizations you belong to.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 Well, there's this partnership, this, and\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 Bethesda.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: Well, so two answers\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 to that, Your Honor. First, even without that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 language, this Court has found that -- that -\n",
      "\n",
      "25 striking that out, this Court has found that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "1 the definition before that language covers\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 political subdivisions. City of Lafayette,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 Chattanooga Foundry, and Ricketts all found\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 that. But Mount Lemmon Fire District is most\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 certainly an organized group of persons, land\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 owners under statute who get together to find a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 common cause and collect taxes around -\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: Counselor, even if\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 it's true in those cases, what's different from\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 those cases and this one is that the original\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 statute made clear that that definition was not\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 going to include states or federal government.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "So given the sort of private nature of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 most of the listing and the fact that the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 statute on its face says it -- no matter what\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 you do, it's not states or government, I would\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 read it in its natural form, and I wouldn't\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 include it unless I'm told to include it\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 otherwise.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: Your Honor, I beg to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 differ with how the statute is structured. So\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 we start with the definition of \"person\" in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 subsection (a). That is broad and expansive.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "Subsection (b) then subtracts. It\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 says it's not the federal government, oh, and,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "1 by the way, it's not states -- that is,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 employer -- let me back up. Employer then says\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 it's any person and, you know, 20 or more\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 people, 20 or more employees, and then it goes\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 on and subtracts the federal government and\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 states and local governments.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "It makes no sense to subtract them\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 unless they were included initially in the -\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: No, it makes no\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 sense to subtract them unless you never\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 intended to include them.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: Your Honor, that's -\n",
      "\n",
      "13 that is certainly not the way this Court has\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 read it. It's certainly not the way Title VII\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 does it.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: You assume an\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 ambiguity, that the statute can be read in two\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 ways. You're not saying the way the court\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 below read it was not permissible. You're just\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 saying a better reading is your way, correct?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: That is correct, Your\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 Honor, but let me put it a slightly different\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 way. I'm not just assuming the other side has\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 not disputed that there are two possible ways\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 to read it. Our position is that when you take\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "1 those five statutory clues, which I've only\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 just begun to get to, the -- the only\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 reasonable reading is our reading.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "So we've already talked about the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 \"persons\" one, but there's more. I would have\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 started with the very first signal. We know\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 that \"also means\" does not signify an\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 additional category of covered employers\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 because that's -\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE GORSUCH: Mr. Rosenkranz, if\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 -- if we disagree with you about the meaning of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 \"also,\" do you have any other argument\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 available to you, or is that the end of the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 case? If we -- if we adopt the normal meaning\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 of \"also,\" meaning in addition to, do you lose?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: No, Your Honor, but\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 -- but let me just make sure, first, this Court\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 has routinely adopted statutory constructions\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 that defy the best dictionary definition.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE GORSUCH: That wasn't my\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 question. My question is, if we take the best\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 dictionary definition, \"in addition to,\" the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 normal meaning, do you lose, or do you have\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 some other available argument? I'd be\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 delighted to hear it if you do.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: So I think we have\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 another argument, Your Honor. So \"also means\"\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 means in addition, and so it adds agents, which\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 I'll get to in a moment, is completely\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 implausible. And then what does it do in the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 next clause?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE GORSUCH: You use those words\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 a lot. And your reply brief uses -- accuses\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 the other side of illusions, distortions,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 disastrous and preposterous results,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 contradictions and anomalies, pretty strong\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 language, and also contortions. That's in the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 first page and a half of the reply brief.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "And I didn't see, though, and I guess\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 I expected to see, some sort of absurd results\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 argument, perhaps, that if we're going to use\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 that kind of language, but I didn't see any.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 So it made me a little concerned.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: Well, Your Honor, let\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 me tell you what the absurd result is. So\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 let's start with the \"agent\" clause.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "The government's position is that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 \"also means\" necessarily adds a category not\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 otherwise covered. If that is true, who are\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 the classic agents? Employees are the classic\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "1 agents.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "That means employees are now directly\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 liable under the statute for any cause of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 action on discrimination. Now that -\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE GORSUCH: Well, but that's -\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE GINSBURG: How likely is it\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 that anyone would sue an employee rather than\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 the employer? I mean, Sue an employee, doesn't\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 have much in her pocket. Sue the employer, it\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 -- it seems to me most unlikely that, even if\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 you could -\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: Your Honor, I -- I\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 disagree with you. It has happened in every\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 circuit under Title VII. Employees have been\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 sued, sometimes along with the employer. And\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 that would be disastrous.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "I mean, first of all, supervisor\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 liability could stretch into the millions of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 dollars.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE GINSBURG: Is it disastrous -\n",
      "\n",
      "21 you said under Title VII employees can be sued.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 Is it disastrous under Title VII?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: No, sorry, Your\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 Honor. I'm saying it has happened under Title\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 VII, and every circuit has said no, no, no, you\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "1 can't do it. Why? Because, as this Court\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 found in Burlington, that is not what the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 \"agent\" clause does.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "What the \"agent\" clause does is\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 incorporate respondeat superior liability,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 which is to say -\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: That point was\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 made by the majority of circuits who ruled in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 your favor. Those circuits still had to deal\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 with the agent meaning and they've dealt with\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 it by addressing respondeat superior liability,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 however they've dealt with it. Your meaning\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 doesn't do away with that tension.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: Your Honor, our\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 meaning most certainly does. We have a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 complete disagreement with the government and\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 Respondents on what the \"agent\" clause does.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 We believe it incorporates respondeat superior\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 liability, which make the employer liable for\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 the agent's activities.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "The government and Respondents say:\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 No, no, no, it adds another category of people\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 who have not been previously identified as\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 employers. Anyone who is now a new employer is\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 subject to liability. And you can tell that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "1 the agent clause causes that mischief and that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 it's -\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE GINSBURG: There's no -- no\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 agent involved in this case, so why should the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 Court address that language, that the term\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 \"also means\" an agent of such person?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: Well, Your Honor, for\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 the simple meaning that everyone has agreed,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 and the Respondents have conceded in their\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 brief at page 32, that the phrase \"also means\"\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 has to carry the same meaning with respect to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 both clauses. So you can't just jump over one\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 and not ask what would \"also means\" produce if\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 you apply that to the first clause.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Well, I -\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN: Mr. Rosenkranz -\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: But I think\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 you get -- your argument comes back and bites\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 you, I think, because you just said they have\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 to be treated the same, 1 and 2.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "Your theory with respect to 2, a state\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 or political subdivision, is that it's already\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 included in the first part of the statute.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "So that would seem to be an argument\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 you have to make with respect to 1, the agent,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "1 that the agent of such a person is already\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 included in the first part.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "So I don't see how your argument\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 answers the problem that you use to undermine\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 the other side's argument.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: Well, Mr. Chief\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 Justice, it does for the following reason.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 What does the \"also means\" clause do? It's an\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 avoidance of doubt clause. It avoids doubt in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 two different ways.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "The first way is by adding that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 \"agent\" clause and saying employers, the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 aforementioned employers, that universe, are\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 subject to respondeat superior liability.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "The second clause also avoids doubt by\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 making it clear that when you are talking about\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 employers, those persons defined in the first\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 sentence, you are including political\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 subdivisions and states.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "And I have to emphasize that you know\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 that the \"agent\" clause is problematic because\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 of the extremes to which Respondents go to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 redefine \"agent.\" They define \"agent\" to mean\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 third-party independent subcontractor, because\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 they cannot accept the possibility that, as is\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "1 clear under the common law for hundreds of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 years, agents, the classic agent, are\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 employees.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "So without the \"agent\" clause -\n",
      "\n",
      "5 excuse me, when you define the \"agent\" clause\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 the way Respondents do, you do end up with a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 disaster.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN: Mr. Rosenkranz, in the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 term \"also means\" in that sentence, you agree,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 don't you, that the term is the same term as in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 the first sentence? In other words, the term\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 is employer, is that correct?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: The term is?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN: Employer, the term\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 employer also means? I mean, here are your two\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 choices -\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: Yes, the antecedent\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 --\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN: -- the term employer\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 or the term person.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: I'm sorry? If you\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 could just -\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN: What is the term in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 the second sentence? Is it an employer?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: Oh. Yes, the term\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "1 employer also means.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN: Okay. So it -- it's\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 just odd because you say that what this clause\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 is meant to do is to make clear that \"person\"\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 is defined in such a way as to include\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 subdivisions.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "So what you're essentially doing is\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 converting the phrase which says the term\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 \"employer\" also means, and converting that into\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 the term \"person,\" just to make clear,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 includes.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: No, Your Honor, no.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 What we are doing is referring back to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 employer. So the first sentence says who is an\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 employer. Who is an employer? An entity that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 has at least 20 employees and that affects\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 commerce.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "Now that is a universe. The term in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 our view also means clarifies that within that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 universe we're doing two things. We're\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 applying agency liability to that universe of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 aforementioned persons who are now labeled\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 employers -\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN: But the clarifying\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 with respect to the subdivisions would not be\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "1 necessary, except for the fact that there's\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 doubt in the person definition. That's where\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 your doubt comes from. It comes from the fact\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 that the person definition is not unambiguous.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: That is one of the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 sources of the doubt, yes.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN: I don't -- I don't -\n",
      "\n",
      "8 what is the other source of the doubt? It's\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 all the source of the doubt, isn't it?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: Well, no, because\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 there are other -- there are other statutory\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 problems that get created completely apart from\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 that. So, for instance -\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN: No, I understand that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 you say that there are anomalies if done in a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 different way, but the doubt arises from the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 ambiguity of the term \"person.\"\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "So that's why I'm suggesting that it\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 would be a strange way to resolve that doubt,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 instead of to just say, by the way, a person\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 includes a subdivision, instead of saying that,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 to say the term \"employer\" also means a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 subdivision.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: Understood, Your\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 Honor. This is a strange statute that was\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "1 written in a strange way. There is a reason\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 for that.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "This -- this gets to one of my other\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 statutory clues, and that is when you think\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 about the -- the evolution of this statute, it\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 was different from Title VII. This statute has\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 two sentences within that definition, not one.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 And it then -- this statute always had \"also\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 means\" within that definition.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "So, if you think about what was going\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 on, and we map it out on page 8 of our brief,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 what the editor was trying to do or, if you\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 look at page N -- 8, there's a red line, the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 basic point is this: This statute always had\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 the same structure.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "The second sentence always had \"also\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 means\" in it. But that second sentence had two\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 parts. One was clearly a clarification and the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 second was an exclusion. The clarification was\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 as to agency and then there was an exclusion.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "What did the drafter do? They just\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 took part of the exclusion and moved it to the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 other side of the -- of the \"also means\"\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 sentence so that now it is serving that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 clarifying purpose.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE BREYER: And you ask -- tell\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 me, if a -- a company, the XYZ Company, has 50\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 employees and one day they think: I have an\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 idea, what we'll do is we'll set up five\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 subsidiaries and they will hire the employees.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 Each will hire 10. And they will be our agent\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 and do everything that we tell them.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "Okay? Does the statute apply?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: Absolutely, Your\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 Honor. XYZ -\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE BREYER: How?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: XYZ is liable for the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 acts of their agents. Under Respondents'\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 position, XYZ -\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE BREYER: But wait. But is it\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 -- the agency isn't -- isn't a -- the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 subsidiary is not an employer.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: Your Honor, so you've\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 said -\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE BREYER: I said the XYZ\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 Corporation sets up five subsidiaries, each of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 which has 10 employees, and it's an agent, so,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 I mean, were they -- yes, it's an agent of -\n",
      "\n",
      "24 the XYZ Corporation tells them what to do.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: Well, Your Honor -\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE BREYER: XYZ Corporation has\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 no employees; it just has five subsidiaries.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: Okay. So there are\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 two scenarios. One is that each of the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 subsidiaries is liable.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE BREYER: Why? They each have\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 10 employees.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: Oh, I see what you're\n",
      "\n",
      "9 saying.\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE BREYER: Yeah.\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: So -- so what -- so\n",
      "\n",
      "12 what this Court -- I would say Manhart kind of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 addresses that question, that you cannot avoid\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 liability by turning yourself into subsidiaries\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 who are all your agents.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE BREYER: Where -- where does\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 it say that?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: Where does Manhart\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 say it?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE BREYER: Yeah. I mean, where\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 does it say that? I mean, where -- where does\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 the statute say that? Because it did occur to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 me that one purpose that (a) could serve is\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 doing just what you said. You cannot turn\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 yourself into five subsidiaries, and that's why\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "1 the subsidiary part, namely the agent part,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 doesn't have a number attached, because they\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 don't want a number attached.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: Well, we are going -\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE BREYER: They don't want you\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 to set up 100 subsidiaries each with one\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 employee and get out of the statute.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: So -- so let's just\n",
      "\n",
      "9 be clear -\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE BREYER: Is it possible?\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: -- private entities\n",
      "\n",
      "12 are always covered under this -- under this\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 statute.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE BREYER: No, I'm not talking\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 about public -\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: Right.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE BREYER: Private entities, it\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 says, the term employer is a person -- maybe\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 I've just gotten mixed up. I don't think so.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "It means a person engaged in an\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 industry who has 20 or more employees. So what\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 I'm trying to imagine is through the use of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 subsidiaries there is no company that has more\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 than 10 employees. And to avoid that, one\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 thing they might have wanted to do is to use\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "1 the word \"agency\" without a qualification that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 the agency has to have 20 employees.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: So, Your Honor, all I\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 can say is there's no reason to believe\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 Congress was ever focused on that -\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE BREYER: On that problem?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: -- on that scenario.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 That was never before Congress. What was\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 before Congress and what this Court held as to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 Title VII in Burlington is that that language\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 is about respondeat superior.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "But let me get -- I've already\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 mentioned two clear signals. Let me get to the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 third one, which is a variation on the agent\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 point.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "While we disagree on what the agent\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 clause does, everyone agrees that it does\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 something important. At a minimum, according\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 to Respondents, it protects employees from the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 independent -- from -- excuse me, from the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 discriminatory acts of independent contractors.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "So the question arises: Why did\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 Congress supply that important protection only\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 to private employees and not to public ones?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 Because that is the consequence of Respondents'\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "1 reading.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "Fourth signal: Affecting commerce.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 And what Congress did with that phrase -- now,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 for now, I am not making a constitutional\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 argument. I am making a drafting argument.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "In every one of these discrimination\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 statutes, Congress felt the need to provide an\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 explicit Commerce Clause hook. It did so for\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 private employers under the ADEA. It did so\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 for all employers, public and private, under\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 Title VII and the ADA.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "Now one can have an interesting -- an\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 interesting constitutional debate about whether\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 that hook was constitutionally required, but my\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 point here is simpler. Congress thought it was\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 necessary in every other context, so why would\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 Congress have left it out here?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "And then the fifth statutory clue is\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 the statutory history. And I've already\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 described how the drafters got to where they\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 got, but let's look at two things.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "The first is how they got -- how they\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 changed the language in -- in 630(b). So they\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 took words that had a particular -- that were\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 on the exclusion side, and they moved it to the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "1 inclusion side.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "We've been accused of reading the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 statute in a way that makes that superfluous.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 It is not. It was absolutely essential to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 identify who is now in the ambit of this\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 statute. It was essential because that was the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 major change.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "Now look at 630(c). We don't have a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 red line in -- in our brief on this one, but\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 you can see it in the government's statutory\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 appendix at -- excuse me, you can see it in -\n",
      "\n",
      "12 in our statutory appendix.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "So the term \"employment agency,\" it's\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 defined there. It means anyone. Originally,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 it said \"but shall not include any agency of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 the United States or any state or political\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 subdivision of a state, except such term shall\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 apply,\" and -- and so forth.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "Congress crossed out everything after\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 \"the United States.\" The only reason to have\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 done this would have been to now include states\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 and political subdivisions within the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 definition of employment agency.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "The only way that could possibly\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 happen is if they were persons to begin with;\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "26\n",
      "\n",
      "1 and, therefore, if they were persons to begin\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 with, you flow them through subdivision -- or\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 subsection (b) and they are subject to the same\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 employee limit.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "Now, if the purpose of that second\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 sentence was to take entities that were already\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 persons and, therefore, subject to that first\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 sentence, encompassed by that first sentence,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 and make it clear that the proviso about the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 size no longer applies, this was a very strange\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 way to do it.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "If there are no further questions, I'd\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 like to reserve the remainder of my time for\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 rebuttal.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Thank you,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 counsel.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: Thank you, Your\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 Honor.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Mr. Fisher.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "ORAL ARGUMENT OF JEFFREY L. FISHER\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENTS\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. FISHER: Mr. Chief Justice, and\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 may it please the Court:\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "The plain text of the ADEA makes\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 absolutely clear that it covers political\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "27\n",
      "\n",
      "1 subdivisions regardless of size. And there's\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 nothing odd, much less absurd, about that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 result.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "And let me start with the text and\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 clarify one thing for the Court. My friend\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 says that we do not dispute that \"also means,\"\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 the key statutory phrase here, can mean\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 different things. But the truth is we actually\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 do dispute that.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "The meaning of \"also means\" is\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 additive. It adds something that wasn't there\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 before. And the -- the confirmation of that is\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 found throughout the U.S. Code. In our brief,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 we cite the 32 other instances in the U.S. Code\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 where the phrase \"also means\" appears in a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 definitional statute. All 32 of those phrases\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 -- statutes use it in an additive manner. And\n",
      "\n",
      "18 I think perhaps the most telling one -\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: One doesn't. One\n",
      "\n",
      "20 doesn't. And how do you deal with that one?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. FISHER: I -- if you're -- if\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 you're speaking, Justice Sotomayor, of the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 consumer statute -\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: Uh-huh.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. FISHER: -- that my friend points\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "28\n",
      "\n",
      "1 to, I think it does use it in an additive\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 manner, because that's a statute where it says\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 \"consumer\" means an individual who does certain\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 things or the person's legal representative.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "And so that itself -- I'm sorry, also\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 means the person's legal representative. That\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 itself is additive. This is not a statute\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 talking about, for example, a court of law\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 where someone's legal representative is the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 alter ego of the person. That's a situation -\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: Well, you don't\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 really -\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. FISHER: -- where it's additive.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: You don't really\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 think that what the statute meant is that the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 legal representative was giving his or her\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 private information. It's not additive in that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 sense. It's sort of that legal representative\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 is giving the consumer's information to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 someone. And so the legal -- that's the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 violation, isn't it?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. FISHER: I think that's right,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 Justice Sotomayor, but it's still talking about\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 a different source than the previous part of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 the statute. And I think if there's one\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "29\n",
      "\n",
      "1 potentially ambiguous provision out of 33,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 we'll still take that, and I would turn the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 Court to the -- perhaps I think the most\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 telling example, which is the one at pages 12\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 and 13 of our brief, about elderly families.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "And I think the reason why that's so\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 telling is because it gives a particular\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 definition and then has a qualification at the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 end, \"or is also handicapped.\" And then it\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 says the -- the word \"also\" means such and\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 such, and then it repeats that phrase, \"or is\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 also handicapped.\"\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "And so Congress, when it uses the word\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 \"also means,\" it did exactly the opposite of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 what my friend says you should read the statute\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 here to do, which is to carry forth those -\n",
      "\n",
      "17 carry down to after \"also means\" the original\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 meaning that had come before it.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: Could you deal\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 with this last example, the federal -- the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 employment agency? It -- it is either\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 superfluous or there's a question whether a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 state employment agency is still covered or\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 not.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. FISHER: I think, Justice\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "30\n",
      "\n",
      "1 Sotomayor, the latter might be the case. But\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 it's not -\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: Well, it is\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 superfluous under your reading.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. FISHER: The -- the federal\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 agency?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: Yes.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. FISHER: Yes. And I think -\n",
      "\n",
      "9 well, it's -- it's not superfluous in the sense\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 that just as the key provision here, subsection\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 B, the federal government is backed out at the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 end, in a situation where I think the better\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 reading might have been to leave them out in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 the first place.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "And I think the reason why you see\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 explicit references to the federal government\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 in both places is because -- for two things.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 One is the Court itself has asked Congress in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 various ways to speak directly when it talks\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 about federal government or states being on the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 hook for one form or another.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "And -- and, secondly, the federal\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 government is itself treated wholly separately\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 in Section 633(a) under a different regime of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 the ADEA. So the federal government is just\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "31\n",
      "\n",
      "1 put aside in all these other provisions. And I\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 think that's what Congress was doing there.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "So we submit to the Court that \"also\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 means\" is simply unambiguous. That's the end\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 of the case, just as the Ninth Circuit said it\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 was.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "If the Court has any doubt about that,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 I would urge the Court to look, as my friend, I\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 think, also urges, to the comparison between\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 Title VII on the one hand and the FLSA on the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 other hand. And I think -\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE ALITO: But if -- if Congress\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 had enacted the -- the ADEA provision and Title\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 VII at the same time, do you think it's\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 plausible that Congress would have said, you\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 know, when it comes to racial discrimination,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 we're not going to allow a suit against a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 government entity with fewer than 25 employees,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 but when it comes to age discrimination, we're\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 going to include every government agency no\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 matter how small?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. FISHER: I think absolutely,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 Justice Alito, and the reason why goes back to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 Lorillard versus Pons and the other cases where\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 this Court has described the genesis of the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "32\n",
      "\n",
      "1 ADEA.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "So the word the Court has used is that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 the ADEA is a hybrid. It's a hybrid between a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 substantive anti-discrimination law on the one\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 hand and a labor statute on the other. And\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 that's borne out in the provisions of the ADEA\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 which borrow the substantive\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 anti-discrimination part from the Title VII\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 language, but the rest of the statute is\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 largely drawn from the FLSA. And in -\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE ALITO: But that's quite -\n",
      "\n",
      "12 that's quite abstract. Do you really think as\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 a policy matter Congress would say that age\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 discrimination is more pernicious and more\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 widespread, so, therefore, we have to have a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 tougher remedy there than we do with respect to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 racial discrimination?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. FISHER: I think that's not\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 exactly the way Congress would have thought of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 it. In the legislative history, you find\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 elements -- and I am going to answer your\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 question directly, I think -- you find in Title\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 VII that Congress was concerned with\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 associational interests, personal associations.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "So one of the things behind the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "33\n",
      "\n",
      "1 numerosity requirement in Title VII is a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 concern about forcing very, very small groups\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 of people to associate with individuals they\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 might not like. Now that might seem antiquated\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 nowadays when we're talking about race\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 relations and race discrimination, but it's\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 directly in the legislative history of Title\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 VII.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "On the other hand, this goes back to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 the ADEA being partly a labor statute as well,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 the -- the purpose of the ADEA is to bring\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 people into the workforce and keep them there\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 and to achieve full employment of older\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 individuals. And as the Secretary of Labor\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 noted in the report this Court discussed in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 EEOC versus Wyoming, that was not to stamp out\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 animus-based discrimination like under Title\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 VII but to achieve full employment.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "And so the reason why Congress may\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 have decided to have public agencies regardless\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 of size on the hook on the -- on the age side\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 and not on the race side is because of this\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 associational interest.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN: Is this, Mr. Fisher,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 the only federal statute that you're aware of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "34\n",
      "\n",
      "1 that imposes an obligation on a small political\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 subdivision but not -- does not impose the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 corresponding obligation on a small private\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 employer?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. FISHER: No. And let me point you\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 to two things. First of all, the other\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 component of the ADEA itself, which I think no\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 one disputes, covers federal governmental\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 employers regardless of size, so we find that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 in the ADEA itself.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "And as to state and political\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 subdivisions, you find a close analogy in the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 FLSA. Now my friend says in his reply brief\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 the FLSA has no numerosity requirements at all\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 on the private side in the FLSA. That's -\n",
      "\n",
      "16 that's strictly speaking true, but enterprise\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 liability under the FLSA depends on -- which is\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 the predominant form of liability -- depends on\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 an employer having at least $500,000 of gross\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 receipts per year.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "So you have a kind of rough analogy in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 that -- in that statute to -- to a numerosity\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 requirement. In other words, you have a firm\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 that has to be of a certain size.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "And I'd add, Justice Kagan, you asked\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "35\n",
      "\n",
      "1 me just about federal, but as we cite in our\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 brief in a lengthy footnote, there are many,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 many states, the majority of states, in fact,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 that cover political subdivisions regardless of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 size. Of that group, about half of them cover\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 political subdivisions regardless of size and,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 on the other hand, still have a numerosity\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 requirement for private employers.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "Now take that one step -\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE GINSBURG: How are -- how are\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 those state statutes raised in comparison to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 this statute?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. FISHER: I didn't hear the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 beginning, Justice Ginsburg.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE GINSBURG: The state statutes,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 you -- you say that most states include\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 political subdivisions without regard to size.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "And do we have language in what -- the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 language that most states use? Is it similar\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 to the language that's used in -- in the ADEA\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 or -\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. FISHER: Well, Justice Ginsburg,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 these citations are all collected in Footnote 6\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 on page 29 of our brief. And the answer to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 your question is, by and large, the state\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "36\n",
      "\n",
      "1 statutes actually use different language. So\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 it's not a case where the states are merely\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 parroting what the ADEA already says.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "I think of our count there are only\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 three states that have the exact same language\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 as the ADEA. The vast majority have other\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 language that makes it clear in other ways that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 they're distinguishing on numerosity terms\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 between one and the other.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "And the thing I would add to that,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 Justice Ginsburg, is that a handful of those\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 states had that distinction even before the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 ADEA was passed.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "So the thing that my friend says is\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 ludicrous for Congress to have achieved\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 actually was in state statutes already. Many\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 state legislatures across the country had\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 already drafted statutes like this before the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 ADEA was passed.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "And so I think, Justice Alito, to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 bring me back to the conversation that I was\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 having with you about the reason why Congress\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 might have done this to distinguish between\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 race and age, I will grant that Congress could\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 have reasonably made the other choice as well.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "37\n",
      "\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "I think that Congress could have\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 decided one or the other. But the proof is in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 what Congress actually did. And, as I said, it\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 had the FLSA on the one hand and Title VII on\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 the other hand. And the two statutes were\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 identical in the sense that when you look to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 the definitional provisions of the Act, you\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 found first a definition of the word \"person\"\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 and then you found a definition of the word\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 \"employer.\"\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "And so what did Congress do in Title\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 VII? It amended the -- it amended the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 definition of \"person\" to achieve, as Justice\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 Ginsburg pointed out, a very easy solution\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 where the numerosity requirement applied to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 political subdivisions.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "When it amended the ADEA, in the exact\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 same Act that it amended the FLSA, indisputably\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 to cover political subdivisions regardless of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 size, it did the same thing it did in the FLSA,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 which is amend the definition of \"employer\" and\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 not the definition of \"person.\"\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "And I'd point this Court to its own\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 decisions in cases like Gross and Nassar which\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 say that we look to not just the language\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "38\n",
      "\n",
      "1 choices Congress made and assume it's\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 intentional. We also look to structural\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 choices that Congress makes and we assume those\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 are intentional.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "And so, even if I had nothing but the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 comparison between the ADEA and Title VII,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 under those cases, I think that would be enough\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 to remove any doubt that the Court might have\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 about what Congress was trying to achieve here.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "But, actually, I have something more\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 here. I have the FLSA, of which the ADEA is\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 closely related. And the Court -- and the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 Congress made exactly the same decision in the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 FLSA.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE ALITO: Would you say\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 something about what your argument means for\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 the \"agent\" clause? If Congress wrote \"also\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 means\" and didn't put \"includes,\" had it\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 written the term \"employer includes any agent\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 of such a person,\" I take it that one could not\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 be an agent without having 25 employees.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "But what -- where does your\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 understanding of this sentence take us with\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 respect to agents?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. FISHER: Justice Alito, let me\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "39\n",
      "\n",
      "1 answer that question, if I may, in two steps.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 I want to first start with my point of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 agreement with the other side, which is we\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 agree that the key question is whether \"also\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 means\" adds something even with respect to the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 agent clause. We think that's an important\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 question for the Court to ask.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "But this brings me back to Justice\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 Breyer's question, which is I don't think there\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 can be any reasonable dispute that the \"agent\"\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 clause does add additional entities into the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 category of employer, and it's not just the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 below 20 thing.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "More fundamentally, it's agents that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 would not otherwise be covered by respondeat\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 superior. That's what the Court noted in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 Manhart, and we explain in our brief in cases\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 like Spirt, and there's also Footnote 1 in the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 Solicitor General's brief, that explain that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 some independent contractors, for example, and\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 that's just to use one example, are agents of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 an employer but are not covered by respondeat\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 superior.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN: But how -\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE BREYER: Where do I look on\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "40\n",
      "\n",
      "1 that? Because I was bothered exactly by the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 same thing that Justice Alito said, that if\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 we're not going to have numbers with B, we're\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 not going to have numbers with A.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "And I think your colleague says, well,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 they didn't want -- they wanted numbers -- all\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 that A does is just make sure it's principles\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 of agency and he cites Burlington.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. FISHER: Uh-huh.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE BREYER: So where would I look\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 to see, no, they had another idea? They wanted\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 some agents covered who had fewer than 20 or 25\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 employees?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. FISHER: Well, Justice Breyer, I\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 don't think you'll find a sentence to that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 effect in the legislative history, but let me\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 -- let me make -\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE BREYER: Yeah.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. FISHER: -- clear on one thing,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 which is the 20 -- the 20 employee thing is\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 just the very beginning of their problems.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "The much bigger problem is an agent of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 any size would not be covered but for that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 clause that would not be under respondeat\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 superior principles. Now my friend in the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "41\n",
      "\n",
      "1 reply brief says that we distort the meaning of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 independent contractors, but I'd urge you to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 read the rest of the sentence that my friend\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 quotes in the commentary to Section 14-N, and\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 also to look at Section 2 of the restatement of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 agency called independent contractor.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "And in both those places, the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 restatement makes clear that some independent\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 contractors, for example, a company hired to do\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 layoffs, choose who's going to be laid off,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 administer our benefits plan and decide what\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 the criteria are for that, those kinds of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 people are agents, but they're not necessarily\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 covered by respondeat superior.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "So my friend, in his reading of the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 \"agent\" clause to do nothing but clarify what\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 has come before, leaves a gaping hole in the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 ADEA and also in Title VII.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN: But I guess I wonder,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 Mr. Fisher, how your reading of the agent\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 clause allows us to make this distinction that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 both you suggest and the solicitor general\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 suggests between entities and individuals?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "I mean, it says any agent of such a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 person, and it doesn't on its face make any\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "42\n",
      "\n",
      "1 such distinction. So how would we go about\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 doing that?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. FISHER: So I think there's two\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 questions you would ask if you had a case\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 dealing with the \"agent\" clause, Justice Kagan.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 I think this is responsive to Justice Alito as\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 well.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "The first question you'd ask is\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 whether any agent includes employees. Now,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 obviously, the word \"any\" might suggest that it\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 does, but, on the other hand, employees are\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 already covered under respondeat superior\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 principles once you've already given the word\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 employer.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "So it would be kind of a mystery and\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 odd why Congress would have wanted agents to be\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 speaking about employees, especially when\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 another provision of the statute defines the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 word \"employee\" and it's used other ways in the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 statute.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "So the first question would be whether\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 \"any agent\" means any agent whatsoever or just\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 non-employee agents that aren't already\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 covered.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "If you answered that question against,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "43\n",
      "\n",
      "1 you know, what I guess would be my position as\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 I stand here, you'd -- you'd still have a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 second question, which is if individual\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 supervisors, for example, were on the hook, the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 question would still be, how are they on the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 hook?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "And as we note and the solicitor\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 general notes as well, the Fourth and Fifth\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 Circuits have held, yes, they're technically\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 liable, but they're liable under something like\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 official capacity principles. So they flow\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 right back to the employer, as one would expect\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 in any employment arrangement.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "So you have two questions that would\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 get you off the train to -- to where my friend\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 would like to lead you with that clause.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "But I think the fundamental thing that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 I would urge to the Court is that you have\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 before you in this case a simply unambiguous\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 statute in terms of every word you need to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 decide this question presented. It says the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 term \"employer\" also means a state or political\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 subdivision. That's all you need to decide\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 this case. And it is absolutely clear.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "I'd urge the Court to resist the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "44\n",
      "\n",
      "1 temptation to go looking elsewhere in the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 statute for ambiguity as a reason why not to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 answer this case as to what the statute itself\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 plainly says. And that's really, I think, the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 beginning and the end of it. And you can leave\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 all that other stuff, if it ever comes back to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 the Court, for another day.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "If there are no other questions, I'll\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 -- I'll wrap up now.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Thank you,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 counsel.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "Mr. Bond.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "ORAL ARGUMENT OF JONATHAN C. BOND\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "ON BEHALF OF THE UNITED STATES,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "AS AMICUS CURIAE, SUPPORTING THE RESPONDENTS\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. BOND: Mr. Chief Justice, and may\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 it please the Court:\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "The Age Act expressly covers state and\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 political subdivision employers regardless of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 their size. That is true for three reasons.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "First, that is by far the most natural\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 reading of the text, given its ordinary meaning\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 and consistent usage across federal law.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "Second, Congress rejected the ready\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 template in Title VII adopted just two years\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "45\n",
      "\n",
      "1 earlier that did exclude small state and local\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 government employers by putting the definition\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 or by putting government employers in the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 definition of \"person.\" Congress didn't do\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 that and followed the FLSA template that it\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 adopted at the same time in 1974.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "And, third, Petitioner's contrary\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 reading would leave a sizable loophole that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 would allow any employer to evade the Age Act\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 by outsourcing discrimination to small agents.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 And in order to avoid that problem, Petitioner\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 is forced ultimately to abandon the core theory\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 they offer of the text that treats the two\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 clauses the same way.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "Now, in terms of the ordinary meaning,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 we agree with Respondent that the language\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 \"also means\" and its usage throughout federal\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 statutes is clear, and it's clear that Congress\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 used it in that ordinary way because it didn't\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 follow the Title VII approach.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "Now my friend on the other side\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 suggests that the differences in the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 definitions of \"person\" in Title VII versus the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 Age Act precluded Congress from doing the same\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 thing.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "46\n",
      "\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "Now those differences are actually\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 quite slight. You can see them at pages 6 and\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 15 of the blue brief appendix, but none of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 those differences prevented Congress in 1974\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 from doing the exact same thing in the Age Act\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 that a different Congress had done two years\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 earlier in Title VII if it had wished to do so.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "There are slight differences, of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 course, with the FLSA, but what's common to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 them is that they address the problem in the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 same way. They put the definition -- or they\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 put governments in the definition of employer,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 not subject to any numerosity requirement. And\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 that's the common thread.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "So, just to touch on the questions\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 that have reached the \"agent\" clause, that's\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 where I think a real vulnerability for\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 Petitioner's argument is. Now it's true the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 Court doesn't need to address any of the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 broader issues or resolve the outer limits of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 that clause because it's not implicated here\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 and nothing in this case turns on it.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "But I think it's important to bear in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 mind that whatever the \"agent\" clause means, it\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 can't mean what Petitioner is offering here,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "47\n",
      "\n",
      "1 because that interpretation, if you hold his\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 interpretation to its logical conclusion, means\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 that any employer could evade the Age Act by\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 outsourcing to small agents.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "The one thing we know the \"agent\"\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 clause is supposed to do from Manhart and other\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 cases in the Title VII context is to prevent\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 what Manhart called delegating discrimination\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 to corporate shells. But if you take\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 Petitioner's reading seriously, it means that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 the second clause merely clarifies the first,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 so the 20-employee threshold reaches all the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 way to the government clause in the second\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 sentence.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "If that's true, it has to follow\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 logically that the 20-employee threshold\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 reaches the \"agent\" clause in the middle. Now\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 I realize the Petitioner in the reply brief and\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 this morning disclaims that result, but there's\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 no way to square that disclaimer with the text.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "It would mean that the 20-employee\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 threshold starts in the first sentence, skips\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 over the \"agent\" clause, and lands on the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 government clause. And that's simply not a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 plausible way to read this statute. And it\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "48\n",
      "\n",
      "1 also is inconsistent with Petitioner's core\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 theory that \"also means\" has to operate the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 same way across both clauses here.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "So I think from the ordinary reading\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 of the text and the way Congress has\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 consistently used it in this statute, there's\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 only one conclusion the Court can draw.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE ALITO: Well, if we -- if we\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 follow the same plain text theory of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 interpretation that you advocate with respect\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 to the provision concerning political\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 subdivisions, wouldn't that lead us to the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 conclusion that an agent of an employer\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 includes the employer's employees? Aren't they\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 agents of the employer?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. BOND: So, Your Honor, again, you\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 don't have to address that here, but no -\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE ALITO: I know we don't have\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 to address it, but we have to have a theory, an\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 understanding of the statute that makes sense,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 and you just made an argument based on the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 \"agent\" clause -\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. BOND: Sure.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE ALITO: -- did you not?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. BOND: Yes, Your Honor.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "49\n",
      "\n",
      "1\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE ALITO: Okay.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. BOND: And the answer to your\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 question is we don't think that it would reach\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 individual liability for the -- because of the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 two additional questions that Respondents'\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 counsel just identified.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "And just to -- to highlight those a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 little bit more, in the meaning of \"agent,\" not\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 only did Congress have no reason to use \"agent\"\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 in its broadest sense, because employees would\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 already trigger respondeat superior liability.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 In this statute, Congress didn't use language\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 that it has used in other statutes like the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 FLSA that lower courts and the Department of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 Labor have read to include individual\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 liability.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "So if I can point you to one example.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 The FLSA, Section 203(d) at page 1-A of the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 appendix to our brief says that an employer\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 includes any person who acts directly or\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 indirectly in the interest of an employer with\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 respect to an employee.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "The FMLA, the Family Medical Leave\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 Act, uses the same language. Lower courts and\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 the Department of Labor have construed those\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "50\n",
      "\n",
      "1 statutes to impose individual liability in some\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 circumstances.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3\n",
      "\n",
      "You don't see that language in the Age\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 Act. And I think it's a fair inference that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 Congress didn't intend to impose individual\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 liability in that circumstance. Again, you\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 don't need to resolve that, but that would be a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 strong contextual reason to reject that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 understanding.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "And, in addition, even if you\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 concluded that some subset of employees or\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 supervisors were agents in some circumstances,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 I think you still would have to answer the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 question that the lower courts have\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 consistently answered against individual\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 liability by determining is this individual\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 employee personally liable or is instead he\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 liable only in his official or representative\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 capacity.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "And the idea behind that is simple.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 If you are an employee and are counted as the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 employer only because you're acting as an\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 agent, that is, only because you are exercising\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 the authority of the employer in varying the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 terms and conditions of a particular employee's\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "51\n",
      "\n",
      "1 employment, liability naturally runs against\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 the employer whose authority you are\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 exercising.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "And to resolve that question, you\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 would need to consider a number of principles\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 that govern remedies law, and you'd need to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 take cognizance of potential spillover effects\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 for other federal statutes, which we think is\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 yet another reason not to delve into those\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 issues here, because the only question you need\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 to answer is does the \"agent\" clause add some\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 category of additional agents.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "By its terms, it does. And it must do\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 so to solve the problem that this Court\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 identified in Manhart and Ellerth and other\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 places.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN: Well, is that true,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 Mr. Bond? Because, on -- on Petitioner's\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 theory, which is to say that this is just a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 reference to respondeat superior liability and\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 basically says that the employer shall have\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 such liability for any agent, wouldn't that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 include these corporate shells that you're\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 talking about?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. BOND: So a few points on that,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "52\n",
      "\n",
      "1 Your Honor. First, if -- if Respondent -- or\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 if Petitioner is correct that the clause simply\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 codifies existing principles of respondeat\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 superior and agency liability, no, the employer\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 would not face liability for acts of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 independent agents, at least in the ordinary\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 course. The general rule is that, unlike\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 respondeat superior liability, a principal is\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 not responsible for acts of independent agents\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 unless you specifically intend the result.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN: Independent\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 contractors, is that what you meant? Or -\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. BOND: Well, independent agents,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 so agents that are not employees, non-employee\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 agents, which can include -\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN: But even in the face\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 --\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. BOND: -- independent contractors.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN: -- of statutory\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 language that says the agent of such a person?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. BOND: So -\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "JUSTICE KAGAN: I -- I mean, these\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 corporate shells are acting as the agent of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 such a person.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. BOND: So let's distinguish two\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "53\n",
      "\n",
      "1 things. As I understand it, Petitioner is\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 urging that the clause would incorporate\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 respondeat superior and ordinary agency\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 principles which, under Restatement Section 250\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 of Agency and 409 of Torts, would not pick up\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 acts of agents who are not employees in the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 ordinary course.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "Now, if what you're suggesting is that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 the language or the reference to agents here\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 incorporates a broader theory of agency\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 liability, that still leaves Petitioner with a\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 difficulty of squaring how the two clauses\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 work, because he says the \"agent\" clause and\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 the government clause must operate in the same\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 way.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "But you can't read the two clauses as\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 doing those fundamentally different things, one\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 creating a novel principle of agency law and\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 the other incorporating an employee numerosity\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 requirement that doesn't apply to agents in the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 middle. So -\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Well, I'm not\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 -- I'm not sure what's so bad about direct\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 agent liability. I mean, let's say you have\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 the manager who runs the -- the shop, the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "54\n",
      "\n",
      "1 factory, and he decides, well, I'm going to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 fire everybody over 45, or whatever it is. And\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 maybe the person fired wants to sue the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 company; maybe the company's bankrupt. I mean,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 what -- what's the big deal about -- it would\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 seem to me that that would allow you to sue the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 person responsible for the decision.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. BOND: So we agree that it's not\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 so anomalous as Petitioner suggests. There are\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 federal statutes that lower courts and agencies\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 have construed as imposing that kind of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 liability. And that's, again, another reason\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 why you don't need to delve into that here.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "The answer is not clear. We think\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 that there are strong contextual indicators\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 that, in this statute, Congress didn't intend\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 to achieve that result. But you're right, if\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 that's the conclusion at the end of the day in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 a case where it's properly presented, that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 there is some individual liability, that's much\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 less anomalous than reading the text in a way\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 that no dictionary or other statute uses it and\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 creating a huge loophole for outsourcing to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 agents of any size under 20 employees.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "If the Court have -- has no further\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "55\n",
      "\n",
      "1 questions, we ask that you affirm.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Thank you,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 counsel.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "Mr. Rosenkranz, five minutes.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF E. JOSHUA ROSENKRANZ\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6\n",
      "\n",
      "ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "MR. ROSENKRANZ: Thank you, Your\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 Honor. A few just brief points:\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "First, Mr. Fisher's explanation of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 \"agency\" is at war with Burlington. This Court\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 said that the reason that there is respondeat\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 superior in Title VII is because of the \"agent\"\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 clause. Nothing else created that.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "The difference between Title VII and\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 Title IX here is crucial. Gebser said Title IX\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 has no respondeat superior liability. Why?\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 Because it did not have an \"agent\" clause.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "Now I'm not saying that there is no\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 liability for that third-party agent. Of\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 course, there's liability. The \"agent\" clause\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 here doesn't just implement respondeat\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 superior; it implements agency principles as to\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 both employees and the -- the independent\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 agent.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "That doesn't mean that agents\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "56\n",
      "\n",
      "1 themselves have to have 20 employees. That's\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2 clear from the wording -- the wording of the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 statute. So you start with (b), it says, \"The\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 employer is anyone who has 20\" -- \"is a person\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 who has 20 or more employees and also affects\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 commerce.\"\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "Then it says, \"That also means any\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 agent of such person.\" The \"such person\" is\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9 the employer who needs 20 employees. The agent\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 does not need 20 employees.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "So let me just go to an observation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 about the relationship between the FLSA and\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 Title VII. Mr. Fisher and Mr. Bond both point\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 out that there's a distinction between the FLSA\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 and Title VII in this Court's jurisprudence.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "It's a procedure/substance\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 distinction, though. Anything that is\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18 substantive, this Court has typically referred\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 to Title VII as the analog.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "So I recognize, Your Honors, that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 neither reading is perfect, but it really comes\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 down to a choice between a reading that is, at\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 worst, mildly ungrammatical and one that is\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 wildly untenable. Respondents are attributing\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 to legislative drafters a level of grammatical\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "57\n",
      "\n",
      "1 sophistication that is unrealistic.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "Meanwhile, the list of problems that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 Respondents are creating with their reading is\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 really untenable. First, it is unfathomable\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 that Congress would have singled out public\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 entities for harsh treatment in a statute whose\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 whole purpose was to bring public employees\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 into the ambit that private employees occupied.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "Second, Respondents rewrite the\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 statute so that \"agent\" means independent\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11 third-party contractor and they say employees\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12 are not agents. You cannot just wave around -\n",
      "\n",
      "13 wave away the problems that are created by that\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14 reading. It is not peripheral. Twelve\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "15 regional circuits all agree with our reading,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "16 and that is all moved away under Respondents'\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "17 reading.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "Third, Respondents have not explained\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "19 why Congress would have stripped public\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "20 employees of valuable rights such as respondeat\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "21 superior liability that private employees have.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "22 The protection is not in the word \"employer.\"\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "23 It's in the agency clause. But, at a minimum,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "24 public employees under Respondents' reading\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "25 lose all recourse for the acts of third-party\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Final Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "58\n",
      "\n",
      "1 contractors. That is at least clear.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "2\n",
      "\n",
      "So, since there's a reasonable reading\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "3 of the statute that achieves Congress's stated\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "4 goal without creating any of this mischief,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "5 that is the reading that this Court should\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "6 adopt.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7\n",
      "\n",
      "If there are no further questions, we\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "8 respectfully request that the Court reverse.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: Thank you,\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "10 counsel.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "11\n",
      "\n",
      "The case is submitted.\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "(Whereupon, at 12:06 p.m., the case in\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "13 the above-entitled matter was submitted.)\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "14\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "16\n",
      "\n",
      "17\n",
      "\n",
      "18\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "20\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "23\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "59\n",
      "\n",
      "Official - Subject to Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "$\n",
      "$500,000 [1] 34:19\n",
      "1\n",
      "1 [4] 1:10 14:20,25 39:18 1-A [1] 49:18 10 [4] 20:6,22 21:7 22:24 100 [1] 22:6 11:09 [2] 1:14 3:2 12 [1] 29:4 12:06 [1] 58:12 13 [1] 29:5 14-N [1] 41:4 15 [1] 46:3 17-587 [1] 3:4 1972 [1] 5:13 1974 [3] 5:14 45:6 46:4\n",
      "2\n",
      "2 [3] 14:20,21 41:5 20 [15] 9:3,4 17:16 22:21 23:2 39: 13 40:12,20,20 54:24 56:1,4,5,9, 10 20-employee [3] 47:12,16,21 2018 [1] 1:10 203(d [1] 49:18 25 [3] 31:18 38:21 40:12 250 [1] 53:4 26 [1] 2:7 29 [1] 35:24\n",
      "3\n",
      "3 [1] 2:4 32 [3] 14:10 27:14,16 33 [1] 29:1\n",
      "4\n",
      "409 [1] 53:5 44 [1] 2:11 45 [1] 54:2\n",
      "5\n",
      "50 [1] 20:2 55 [1] 2:14\n",
      "6\n",
      "6 [2] 35:23 46:2 630(b [1] 24:23 630(c [1] 25:8 633(a [1] 30:24\n",
      "8\n",
      "8 [2] 19:11,13\n",
      "A\n",
      "a.m [2] 1:14 3:2 abandon [1] 45:12 above-entitled [2] 1:12 58:13 absolutely [6] 5:3 20:9 25:4 26:25 31:22 43:24 abstract [1] 32:12 absurd [3] 11:15,20 27:2 accept [1] 15:25 according [1] 23:18 accused [1] 25:2 accuses [1] 11:8\n",
      "\n",
      "achieve [5] 33:13,18 37:13 38:9 agrees [1] 23:17\n",
      "\n",
      "avoid [3] 21:13 22:24 45:11\n",
      "\n",
      "54:17\n",
      "\n",
      "aided [1] 4:20\n",
      "\n",
      "avoidance [1] 15:9\n",
      "\n",
      "achieved [1] 36:15\n",
      "\n",
      "AL [1] 1:6\n",
      "\n",
      "avoids [2] 15:9,15\n",
      "\n",
      "achieves [1] 58:3\n",
      "\n",
      "ALITO [12] 31:12,23 32:11 36:20 aware [1] 33:25\n",
      "\n",
      "across [3] 36:17 44:23 48:3\n",
      "\n",
      "38:15,25 40:2 42:6 48:8,18,24 49: away [3] 13:13 57:13,16\n",
      "\n",
      "Act [12] 5:7,11 7:10 37:7,18 44:18 1\n",
      "\n",
      "B\n",
      "\n",
      "45:9,24 46:5 47:3 49:24 50:4\n",
      "\n",
      "allow [3] 31:17 45:9 54:6\n",
      "\n",
      "acting [2] 50:22 52:23\n",
      "\n",
      "allows [1] 41:21\n",
      "\n",
      "back [10] 3:13 9:2 14:18 17:13 31:\n",
      "\n",
      "action [1] 12:4\n",
      "\n",
      "already [13] 10:4 14:22 15:1 23:12 23 33:9 36:21 39:8 43:12 44:6\n",
      "\n",
      "activities [1] 13:20\n",
      "\n",
      "24:19 26:6 36:3,16,18 42:12,13, backed [1] 30:11\n",
      "\n",
      "acts [7] 20:13 23:21 49:20 52:5,9 23 49:11\n",
      "\n",
      "bad [1] 53:23\n",
      "\n",
      "53:6 57:25\n",
      "\n",
      "alter [1] 28:10\n",
      "\n",
      "bankrupt [1] 54:4\n",
      "\n",
      "actually [6] 27:8 36:1,16 37:3 38: alternative [1] 4:8\n",
      "\n",
      "based [1] 48:21\n",
      "\n",
      "10 46:1\n",
      "\n",
      "ambiguity [3] 9:17 18:17 44:2\n",
      "\n",
      "basic [1] 19:14\n",
      "\n",
      "ADA [1] 24:11\n",
      "\n",
      "ambiguous [1] 29:1\n",
      "\n",
      "basically [1] 51:21\n",
      "\n",
      "add [4] 34:25 36:10 39:11 51:11 ambit [2] 25:5 57:8\n",
      "\n",
      "bear [1] 46:23\n",
      "\n",
      "adding [1] 15:11\n",
      "\n",
      "amend [1] 37:21\n",
      "\n",
      "beg [1] 8:20\n",
      "\n",
      "addition [5] 4:9 10:15,22 11:3 50: amended [4] 37:12,12,17,18\n",
      "\n",
      "began [2] 6:7,9\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "amicus [3] 1:23 2:11 44:15\n",
      "\n",
      "begin [2] 25:25 26:1\n",
      "\n",
      "additional [5] 4:9 10:8 39:11 49:5 analog [1] 56:19\n",
      "\n",
      "beginning [4] 4:2 35:14 40:21 44:\n",
      "\n",
      "51:12\n",
      "\n",
      "analogy [2] 34:12,21\n",
      "\n",
      "5\n",
      "\n",
      "additive [6] 27:11,17 28:1,7,13,17 animus-based [1] 33:17\n",
      "\n",
      "begun [1] 10:2\n",
      "\n",
      "address [5] 14:5 46:10,19 48:17, anomalies [2] 11:11 18:15\n",
      "\n",
      "behalf [10] 1:18,20 2:4,7,10,14 3:8\n",
      "\n",
      "19\n",
      "\n",
      "anomalous [2] 54:9,21\n",
      "\n",
      "26:21 44:14 55:6\n",
      "\n",
      "addresses [1] 21:13\n",
      "\n",
      "another [8] 11:2 13:22 30:21 40: behind [2] 32:25 50:20\n",
      "\n",
      "addressing [1] 13:11\n",
      "\n",
      "11 42:18 44:7 51:9 54:12\n",
      "\n",
      "believe [2] 13:18 23:4\n",
      "\n",
      "adds [5] 11:3,23 13:22 27:11 39:5 answer [8] 32:21 35:24 39:1 44:3 belong [2] 7:18,19\n",
      "\n",
      "ADEA [23] 5:6 6:9,12 24:9 26:24 49:2 50:13 51:11 54:14\n",
      "\n",
      "below [2] 9:19 39:13\n",
      "\n",
      "30:25 31:13 32:1,3,6 33:10,11 34: answered [2] 42:25 50:15\n",
      "\n",
      "benefits [1] 41:11\n",
      "\n",
      "7,10 35:20 36:3,6,13,19 37:17 38: answers [2] 7:22 15:4\n",
      "\n",
      "best [3] 4:1 10:19,21\n",
      "\n",
      "6,11 41:18\n",
      "\n",
      "antecedent [1] 16:17\n",
      "\n",
      "Bethesda [2] 7:19,21\n",
      "\n",
      "administer [1] 41:11\n",
      "\n",
      "anti-discrimination [3] 4:22 32:4, better [2] 9:20 30:12\n",
      "\n",
      "adopt [2] 10:14 58:6\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "between [10] 31:9 32:3 36:9,23 38:\n",
      "\n",
      "adopted [3] 10:18 44:25 45:6\n",
      "\n",
      "antiquated [1] 33:4\n",
      "\n",
      "6 41:23 55:14 56:12,14,22\n",
      "\n",
      "advocate [1] 48:10\n",
      "\n",
      "apart [1] 18:12\n",
      "\n",
      "beyond [1] 4:10\n",
      "\n",
      "Affecting [1] 24:2\n",
      "\n",
      "APPEARANCES [1] 1:16\n",
      "\n",
      "big [1] 54:5\n",
      "\n",
      "affects [2] 17:16 56:5\n",
      "\n",
      "appears [1] 27:15\n",
      "\n",
      "bigger [1] 40:22\n",
      "\n",
      "affirm [1] 55:1\n",
      "\n",
      "appendix [5] 5:23 25:11,12 46:3 bit [1] 49:8\n",
      "\n",
      "aforementioned [2] 15:13 17:22 49:19\n",
      "\n",
      "bites [1] 14:18\n",
      "\n",
      "age [10] 31:19 32:13 33:21 36:24 applied [1] 37:15\n",
      "\n",
      "blue [1] 46:3\n",
      "\n",
      "44:18 45:9,24 46:5 47:3 50:3\n",
      "\n",
      "applies [1] 26:10\n",
      "\n",
      "BOND [17] 1:21 2:9 44:12,13,16\n",
      "\n",
      "agencies [2] 33:20 54:10\n",
      "\n",
      "apply [5] 6:19 14:14 20:8 25:18 53: 48:16,23,25 49:2 51:18,25 52:13,\n",
      "\n",
      "agency [22] 17:21 19:20 20:16 23: 20\n",
      "\n",
      "18,21,25 54:8 56:13\n",
      "\n",
      "1,2 25:13,15,23 29:21,23 30:6 31: applying [1] 17:21\n",
      "\n",
      "borne [1] 32:6\n",
      "\n",
      "20 40:8 41:6 52:4 53:3,5,10,18 55: approach [2] 6:1 45:20\n",
      "\n",
      "borrow [1] 32:7\n",
      "\n",
      "10,22 57:23\n",
      "\n",
      "aren't [2] 42:23 48:14\n",
      "\n",
      "both [7] 14:12 30:17 41:7,22 48:3\n",
      "\n",
      "agent [60] 11:21 13:3,4,10,17 14:1, argument [23] 1:13 2:2,5,8,12 3:4, 55:23 56:13\n",
      "\n",
      "4,6,25 15:1,12,21,23,23 16:2,4,5 7 10:12,24 11:2,16 14:18,24 15:3, bothered [1] 40:1\n",
      "\n",
      "20:6,22,23 22:1 23:14,16 38:17,\n",
      "\n",
      "5 24:5,5 26:20 38:16 44:13 46:18 BREYER [18] 20:1,11,15,20 21:1,6,\n",
      "\n",
      "19,21 39:6,10 40:22 41:16,20,24 48:21 55:5\n",
      "\n",
      "10,16,20 22:5,10,14,17 23:6 39:25\n",
      "\n",
      "42:5,9,22,22 46:16,24 47:5,17,23 arises [2] 18:16 23:22\n",
      "\n",
      "40:10,14,18\n",
      "\n",
      "48:13,22 49:8,9 50:23 51:11,22 around [2] 8:7 57:12\n",
      "\n",
      "Breyer's [1] 39:9\n",
      "\n",
      "52:20,23 53:13,24 55:12,17,19,20, arrangement [1] 43:13\n",
      "\n",
      "brief [18] 4:1 11:8,13 14:10 19:11\n",
      "\n",
      "24 56:8,9 57:10\n",
      "\n",
      "aside [2] 7:2 31:1\n",
      "\n",
      "25:9 27:13 29:5 34:13 35:2,24 39:\n",
      "\n",
      "agent's [1] 13:20\n",
      "\n",
      "Assistant [1] 1:21\n",
      "\n",
      "17,19 41:1 46:3 47:18 49:19 55:8\n",
      "\n",
      "agents [29] 11:3,25 12:1 16:2 20: associate [1] 33:3\n",
      "\n",
      "bring [4] 3:24 33:11 36:21 57:7\n",
      "\n",
      "13 21:15 38:24 39:14,21 40:12 41: associational [2] 32:24 33:23\n",
      "\n",
      "brings [1] 39:8\n",
      "\n",
      "13 42:16,23 45:10 47:4 48:15 50: associations [3] 7:3,14 32:24\n",
      "\n",
      "broad [1] 8:23\n",
      "\n",
      "12 51:12 52:6,9,13,14,15 53:6,9, assume [3] 9:16 38:1,3\n",
      "\n",
      "broader [2] 46:20 53:10\n",
      "\n",
      "20 54:24 55:25 57:12\n",
      "\n",
      "assuming [1] 9:23\n",
      "\n",
      "broadest [1] 49:10\n",
      "\n",
      "agree [5] 16:9 39:4 45:16 54:8 57: attached [2] 22:2,3\n",
      "\n",
      "built [1] 3:18\n",
      "\n",
      "15\n",
      "\n",
      "attributing [2] 6:5 56:24\n",
      "\n",
      "Burlington [4] 13:2 23:10 40:8 55:\n",
      "\n",
      "agreed [1] 14:8\n",
      "\n",
      "authority [2] 50:24 51:2\n",
      "\n",
      "10\n",
      "\n",
      "agreement [1] 39:3\n",
      "\n",
      "available [2] 10:13,24\n",
      "\n",
      "Sheet 1\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "$500,000 - Burlington\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "60\n",
      "\n",
      "Official - Subject to Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "C\n",
      "\n",
      "colleague [1] 40:5\n",
      "\n",
      "counted [1] 50:21\n",
      "\n",
      "49:20\n",
      "\n",
      "colleagues [1] 4:4\n",
      "\n",
      "country [1] 36:17\n",
      "\n",
      "disagree [3] 10:11 12:13 23:16\n",
      "\n",
      "California [1] 1:19\n",
      "\n",
      "collect [1] 8:7\n",
      "\n",
      "course [4] 46:9 52:7 53:7 55:20 disagreement [1] 13:16\n",
      "\n",
      "called [2] 41:6 47:8\n",
      "\n",
      "collected [1] 35:23\n",
      "\n",
      "COURT [44] 1:1,13 3:10 5:21 6:15, disaster [1] 16:7\n",
      "\n",
      "came [1] 1:12\n",
      "\n",
      "come [2] 29:18 41:17\n",
      "\n",
      "24 7:4,24,25 9:13,18 10:17 13:1 disastrous [4] 11:10 12:16,20,22\n",
      "\n",
      "cannot [4] 15:25 21:13,24 57:12 comes [7] 14:18 18:3,3 31:16,19 14:5 21:12 23:9 26:23 27:5 28:8 disclaimer [1] 47:20\n",
      "\n",
      "canons [1] 4:20\n",
      "\n",
      "44:6 56:21\n",
      "\n",
      "29:3 30:18 31:3,7,8,25 32:2 33:15 disclaims [1] 47:19\n",
      "\n",
      "capacity [2] 43:11 50:19\n",
      "\n",
      "commentary [1] 41:4\n",
      "\n",
      "37:23 38:8,12 39:7,16 43:18,25 discrimination [10] 12:4 24:6 31:\n",
      "\n",
      "carry [3] 14:11 29:16,17\n",
      "\n",
      "commerce [4] 17:17 24:2,8 56:6 44:7,17 46:19 48:7 51:14 54:25\n",
      "\n",
      "16,19 32:14,17 33:6,17 45:10 47:\n",
      "\n",
      "Case [14] 3:4 10:14 14:4 30:1 31:5 common [4] 8:7 16:1 46:9,14\n",
      "\n",
      "55:10 56:18 58:5,8\n",
      "\n",
      "8\n",
      "\n",
      "36:2 42:4 43:19,24 44:3 46:22 54: company [5] 20:2,2 22:23 41:9 54: Court's [1] 56:15\n",
      "\n",
      "discriminatory [1] 23:21\n",
      "\n",
      "19 58:11,12\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "courts [4] 49:14,24 50:14 54:10 discussed [1] 33:15\n",
      "\n",
      "cases [9] 6:25 7:8 8:9,10 31:24 37: company's [1] 54:4\n",
      "\n",
      "cover [3] 35:4,5 37:19\n",
      "\n",
      "dispute [4] 4:7 27:6,9 39:10\n",
      "\n",
      "24 38:7 39:17 47:7\n",
      "\n",
      "comparison [3] 31:9 35:11 38:6 covered [11] 10:8 11:24 22:12 29: disputed [2] 6:18 9:24\n",
      "\n",
      "category [5] 10:8 11:23 13:22 39: complete [1] 13:16\n",
      "\n",
      "23 39:15,22 40:12,23 41:14 42:12, disputes [1] 34:8\n",
      "\n",
      "12 51:12\n",
      "\n",
      "completely [2] 11:4 18:12\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "distinction [5] 36:12 41:21 42:1\n",
      "\n",
      "cause [2] 8:7 12:3\n",
      "\n",
      "component [1] 34:7\n",
      "\n",
      "covers [4] 8:1 26:25 34:8 44:18\n",
      "\n",
      "56:14,17\n",
      "\n",
      "causes [1] 14:1\n",
      "\n",
      "conceded [1] 14:9\n",
      "\n",
      "created [3] 18:12 55:13 57:13\n",
      "\n",
      "distinguish [2] 36:23 52:25\n",
      "\n",
      "causing [1] 4:5\n",
      "\n",
      "concern [1] 33:2\n",
      "\n",
      "creating [4] 53:18 54:23 57:3 58:4 distinguishing [1] 36:8\n",
      "\n",
      "certain [2] 28:3 34:24\n",
      "\n",
      "concerned [2] 11:18 32:23\n",
      "\n",
      "criteria [1] 41:12\n",
      "\n",
      "distort [1] 41:1\n",
      "\n",
      "certainly [4] 8:5 9:13,14 13:15\n",
      "\n",
      "concerning [1] 48:11\n",
      "\n",
      "crossed [1] 25:19\n",
      "\n",
      "distortions [1] 11:9\n",
      "\n",
      "change [1] 25:7\n",
      "\n",
      "concluded [2] 7:5 50:11\n",
      "\n",
      "crucial [2] 3:21 55:15\n",
      "\n",
      "DISTRICT [3] 1:3 3:5 8:4\n",
      "\n",
      "changed [1] 24:23\n",
      "\n",
      "conclusion [4] 47:2 48:7,13 54:18 curiae [3] 1:23 2:11 44:15\n",
      "\n",
      "doing [10] 6:6 17:7,13,20 21:24 31:\n",
      "\n",
      "Chattanooga [2] 7:7 8:3\n",
      "\n",
      "conditions [1] 50:25\n",
      "\n",
      "CHIEF [14] 3:3,9 7:11 14:15,17 15: confirmation [1] 27:12\n",
      "\n",
      "D\n",
      "\n",
      "2 42:2 45:24 46:5 53:17\n",
      "\n",
      "dollars [1] 12:19\n",
      "\n",
      "6 26:15,19,22 44:10,16 53:22 55: Congress [47] 5:1,9,19,25 23:5,8, D.C [2] 1:9,22\n",
      "\n",
      "done [6] 5:9,13 18:15 25:21 36:23\n",
      "\n",
      "2 58:9\n",
      "\n",
      "9,23 24:3,7,15,17 25:19 29:13 30: day [3] 20:3 44:7 54:18\n",
      "\n",
      "46:6\n",
      "\n",
      "choice [2] 36:25 56:22\n",
      "\n",
      "18 31:2,12,15 32:13,19,23 33:19 deal [4] 13:9 27:20 29:19 54:5\n",
      "\n",
      "doubt [12] 15:9,9,15 18:2,3,6,8,9,\n",
      "\n",
      "choices [3] 16:16 38:1,3\n",
      "\n",
      "36:15,22,24 37:1,3,11 38:1,3,9,13, dealing [1] 42:5\n",
      "\n",
      "16,19 31:7 38:8\n",
      "\n",
      "choose [1] 41:10\n",
      "\n",
      "17 42:16 44:24 45:4,18,24 46:4,6 dealt [2] 13:10,12\n",
      "\n",
      "down [2] 29:17 56:22\n",
      "\n",
      "Circuit [4] 3:11 12:14,25 31:5\n",
      "\n",
      "48:5 49:9,12 50:5 54:16 57:5,19 debate [1] 24:13\n",
      "\n",
      "drafted [1] 36:18\n",
      "\n",
      "circuits [4] 13:8,9 43:9 57:15\n",
      "\n",
      "Congress's [1] 58:3\n",
      "\n",
      "decide [3] 41:11 43:21,23\n",
      "\n",
      "drafter [1] 19:21\n",
      "\n",
      "circumstance [1] 50:6\n",
      "\n",
      "consequence [1] 23:25\n",
      "\n",
      "decided [2] 33:20 37:2\n",
      "\n",
      "drafters [2] 24:20 56:25\n",
      "\n",
      "circumstances [2] 50:2,12\n",
      "\n",
      "consider [1] 51:5\n",
      "\n",
      "decides [1] 54:1\n",
      "\n",
      "drafting [1] 24:5\n",
      "\n",
      "citations [1] 35:23\n",
      "\n",
      "considering [1] 3:15\n",
      "\n",
      "decision [2] 38:13 54:7\n",
      "\n",
      "draw [1] 48:7\n",
      "\n",
      "cite [2] 27:14 35:1\n",
      "\n",
      "consistent [1] 44:23\n",
      "\n",
      "decisions [1] 37:24\n",
      "\n",
      "drawn [1] 32:10\n",
      "\n",
      "cites [1] 40:8 City [3] 7:7,18 8:2\n",
      "\n",
      "consistently [2] 48:6 50:15 constitutional [2] 24:4,13\n",
      "\n",
      "define [2] 15:23 16:5 defined [4] 4:10 15:17 17:5 25:14\n",
      "\n",
      "E\n",
      "\n",
      "Claims [1] 7:10\n",
      "\n",
      "constitutionally [1] 24:14\n",
      "\n",
      "defines [1] 42:18\n",
      "\n",
      "Each [5] 20:6,21 21:4,6 22:6\n",
      "\n",
      "clarification [2] 19:18,19\n",
      "\n",
      "construction [1] 4:20\n",
      "\n",
      "definition [31] 3:12,17,18 4:12 5: earlier [2] 45:1 46:7\n",
      "\n",
      "clarifies [2] 17:19 47:11\n",
      "\n",
      "constructions [1] 10:18\n",
      "\n",
      "20,22,24 6:10,12,14 7:8 8:1,11,22 easy [1] 37:14\n",
      "\n",
      "clarify [2] 27:5 41:16\n",
      "\n",
      "construed [2] 49:25 54:11\n",
      "\n",
      "10:19,22 18:2,4 19:7,9 25:23 29:8 editor [1] 19:12\n",
      "\n",
      "clarifying [2] 17:24 19:25\n",
      "\n",
      "consumer [2] 27:23 28:3\n",
      "\n",
      "37:8,9,13,21,22 45:2,4 46:11,12 EEOC [1] 33:16\n",
      "\n",
      "classic [3] 11:25,25 16:2\n",
      "\n",
      "consumer's [1] 28:19\n",
      "\n",
      "definitional [2] 27:16 37:7\n",
      "\n",
      "effect [1] 40:16\n",
      "\n",
      "clause [44] 11:6,21 13:3,4,17 14:1, context [3] 4:16 24:16 47:7\n",
      "\n",
      "definitions [1] 45:23\n",
      "\n",
      "effects [1] 51:7\n",
      "\n",
      "14 15:8,9,12,15,21 16:4,5 17:3 23: contextual [2] 50:8 54:15\n",
      "\n",
      "defy [1] 10:19\n",
      "\n",
      "ego [1] 28:10\n",
      "\n",
      "17 24:8 38:17 39:6,11 40:24 41: contortions [1] 11:12\n",
      "\n",
      "delegating [1] 47:8\n",
      "\n",
      "either [1] 29:21\n",
      "\n",
      "16,21 42:5 43:16 46:16,21,24 47: contractor [2] 41:6 57:11\n",
      "\n",
      "delighted [1] 10:25\n",
      "\n",
      "elaboration [1] 4:12\n",
      "\n",
      "6,11,13,17,23,24 48:22 51:11 52:2 contractors [7] 23:21 39:20 41:2, delve [2] 51:9 54:13\n",
      "\n",
      "elderly [1] 29:5\n",
      "\n",
      "53:2,13,14 55:13,17,20 57:23\n",
      "\n",
      "9 52:12,18 58:1\n",
      "\n",
      "Department [3] 1:22 49:14,25\n",
      "\n",
      "elements [1] 32:21\n",
      "\n",
      "clauses [5] 14:12 45:14 48:3 53: contradictions [1] 11:11\n",
      "\n",
      "depends [2] 34:17,18\n",
      "\n",
      "Ellerth [1] 51:15\n",
      "\n",
      "12,16\n",
      "\n",
      "contrary [1] 45:7\n",
      "\n",
      "described [2] 24:20 31:25\n",
      "\n",
      "elsewhere [1] 44:1\n",
      "\n",
      "clear [21] 4:16 5:3,3 8:11 15:16 16: conversation [1] 36:21\n",
      "\n",
      "determining [1] 50:16\n",
      "\n",
      "emphasize [1] 15:20\n",
      "\n",
      "1 17:4,10 22:9 23:13 26:9,25 36:7 converting [2] 17:8,9\n",
      "\n",
      "dictionary [3] 10:19,22 54:22\n",
      "\n",
      "employee [10] 12:7,8 22:7 26:4 40:\n",
      "\n",
      "40:19 41:8 43:24 45:18,18 54:14 core [2] 45:12 48:1\n",
      "\n",
      "differ [1] 8:21\n",
      "\n",
      "20 42:19 49:22 50:17,21 53:19\n",
      "\n",
      "56:2 58:1\n",
      "\n",
      "corporate [3] 47:9 51:23 52:23\n",
      "\n",
      "difference [1] 55:14\n",
      "\n",
      "employee's [1] 50:25\n",
      "\n",
      "clearly [1] 19:18\n",
      "\n",
      "Corporation [3] 20:21,24 21:1\n",
      "\n",
      "differences [4] 45:22 46:1,4,8\n",
      "\n",
      "employees [41] 3:21 9:4 11:25 12:\n",
      "\n",
      "close [1] 34:12\n",
      "\n",
      "Corporations [5] 6:24,25 7:1,3,15 different [14] 5:24,25 6:7 8:9 9:22 2,14,21 16:3 17:16 20:3,5,22 21:2,\n",
      "\n",
      "closely [1] 38:12\n",
      "\n",
      "correct [4] 9:20,21 16:12 52:2\n",
      "\n",
      "15:10 18:16 19:6 27:8 28:24 30: 7 22:21,24 23:2,19,24 31:18 38:\n",
      "\n",
      "clue [1] 24:18\n",
      "\n",
      "corresponding [1] 34:3\n",
      "\n",
      "24 36:1 46:6 53:17\n",
      "\n",
      "21 40:13 42:9,11,17 48:14 49:10\n",
      "\n",
      "clues [2] 10:1 19:4\n",
      "\n",
      "counsel [5] 26:16 44:11 49:6 55:3 difficulty [1] 53:12\n",
      "\n",
      "50:11 52:14 53:6 54:24 55:23 56:\n",
      "\n",
      "Code [2] 27:13,14\n",
      "\n",
      "58:10\n",
      "\n",
      "direct [1] 53:23\n",
      "\n",
      "1,5,9,10 57:7,8,11,20,21,24\n",
      "\n",
      "codifies [1] 52:3\n",
      "\n",
      "Counselor [1] 8:8\n",
      "\n",
      "direction [1] 4:19\n",
      "\n",
      "employer [47] 3:12,18 9:2,2 12:8,9,\n",
      "\n",
      "cognizance [1] 51:7\n",
      "\n",
      "count [1] 36:4\n",
      "\n",
      "directly [5] 12:2 30:19 32:22 33:7 15 13:19,24 16:12,14,15,19,24 17:\n",
      "\n",
      "Sheet 2\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "California - employer\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "61\n",
      "\n",
      "Official - Subject to Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "1,9,14,15,15 18:22 20:17 22:18\n",
      "34:4,19 37:10,21 38:19 39:12,22\n",
      "42:14 43:12,22 45:9 46:12 47:3\n",
      "48:13,15 49:19,21 50:22,24 51:2,\n",
      "21 52:4 56:4,9 57:22 employer's [1] 48:14 employers [15] 3:23 5:5 10:8 13: 24 15:12,13,17 17:23 24:9,10 34:\n",
      "9 35:8 44:19 45:2,3 employment [8] 25:13,23 29:21, 23 33:13,18 43:13 51:1 enacted [1] 31:13 encompassed [1] 26:8 encountered [1] 7:4 end [8] 4:3 10:13 16:6 29:9 30:12 31:4 44:5 54:18 engaged [1] 22:20 enough [1] 38:7 enterprise [1] 34:16 entire [1] 6:17 entirely [1] 5:24 entities [7] 6:19 22:11,17 26:6 39: 11 41:23 57:6 entity [2] 17:15 31:18 especially [1] 42:17 ESQ [5] 1:17,19 2:3,6,13 essential [2] 25:4,6 essentially [1] 17:7 ET [1] 1:6 evade [2] 45:9 47:3 even [9] 7:8,23 8:8 12:10 36:12 38: 5 39:5 50:10 52:16 everybody [1] 54:2 everyone [4] 6:1,2 14:8 23:17 everything [2] 20:7 25:19 evolution [1] 19:5 exact [3] 36:5 37:17 46:5 exactly [4] 29:14 32:19 38:13 40:1 example [8] 28:8 29:4,20 39:20,21 41:9 43:4 49:17 except [2] 18:1 25:17 exclude [1] 45:1 exclusion [4] 19:19,20,22 24:25 excuse [3] 16:5 23:20 25:11 exercising [2] 50:23 51:3 existing [1] 52:3 expansive [6] 6:10,11,14,16,17 8: 23 expect [1] 43:12 expected [1] 11:15 explain [2] 39:17,19 explained [1] 57:18 explains [1] 4:1 explanation [1] 55:9 explicit [2] 24:8 30:16 expressly [1] 44:18 extremely [1] 6:11 extremes [1] 15:22\n",
      "F\n",
      "face [4] 8:15 41:25 52:5,16 fact [4] 8:14 18:1,3 35:3 factory [1] 54:1 Fair [3] 5:7,10 50:4\n",
      "\n",
      "False [1] 7:9\n",
      "\n",
      "genesis [1] 31:25\n",
      "\n",
      "families [1] 29:5 Family [1] 49:23 far [1] 44:21 favor [1] 13:9\n",
      "\n",
      "gets [1] 19:3 GINSBURG [10] 4:24 12:6,20 14:3 35:10,14,15,22 36:11 37:14 given [3] 8:13 42:13 44:22\n",
      "\n",
      "federal [18] 7:9 8:12,25 9:5 29:20 gives [1] 29:7\n",
      "\n",
      "30:5,11,16,20,22,25 33:25 34:8 35:1 44:23 45:17 51:8 54:10 felt [1] 24:7 few [2] 51:25 55:8\n",
      "\n",
      "giving [2] 28:16,19 goal [1] 58:4 GORSUCH [4] 10:10,20 11:7 12:5 got [3] 24:20,21,22\n",
      "\n",
      "fewer [2] 31:18 40:12\n",
      "\n",
      "gotten [1] 22:19\n",
      "\n",
      "fifth [2] 24:18 43:8 find [6] 8:6 32:20,22 34:9,12 40:15 FIRE [4] 1:3 3:5 8:4 54:2 fired [1] 54:3\n",
      "\n",
      "govern [1] 51:6 government [18] 8:12,16,25 9:5 13:16,21 30:11,16,20,23,25 31:18, 20 45:2,3 47:13,24 53:14\n",
      "\n",
      "firm [1] 34:23\n",
      "\n",
      "government's [3] 5:23 11:22 25:\n",
      "\n",
      "first [31] 3:14,16 4:11 5:22 7:23 10: 10 6,17 11:13 12:17 14:14,23 15:2, governmental [1] 34:8 11,17 16:11 17:14 24:22 26:7,8 governments [2] 9:6 46:12 30:14 34:6 37:8 39:2 42:8,21 44: grammatical [1] 56:25\n",
      "\n",
      "21 47:11,22 52:1 55:9 57:4\n",
      "\n",
      "grant [1] 36:24\n",
      "\n",
      "FISHER [25] 1:19 2:6 26:19,20,22 27:21,25 28:13,22 29:25 30:5,8 31:22 32:18 33:24 34:5 35:13,22 38:25 40:9,14,19 41:20 42:3 56:\n",
      "\n",
      "gross [2] 34:19 37:24 group [4] 6:12,18 8:5 35:5 groups [3] 7:12,16 33:2 guess [3] 11:14 41:19 43:1\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "GUIDO [2] 1:6 3:5\n",
      "\n",
      "Fisher's [1] 55:9\n",
      "\n",
      "H\n",
      "\n",
      "five [8] 4:17 6:25 10:1 20:4,21 21:2,\n",
      "\n",
      "25 55:4\n",
      "\n",
      "half [4] 3:14,16 11:13 35:5\n",
      "\n",
      "fixated [1] 3:11\n",
      "\n",
      "hand [8] 31:10,11 32:5 33:9 35:7\n",
      "\n",
      "flow [2] 26:2 43:11\n",
      "\n",
      "37:4,5 42:11\n",
      "\n",
      "FLSA [19] 5:20,22 31:10 32:10 34: handful [1] 36:11\n",
      "\n",
      "13,14,15,17 37:4,18,20 38:11,14 handicapped [2] 29:9,12\n",
      "\n",
      "45:5 46:9 49:14,18 56:12,14\n",
      "\n",
      "happen [1] 25:25\n",
      "\n",
      "FMLA [1] 49:23\n",
      "\n",
      "happened [2] 12:13,24\n",
      "\n",
      "focused [1] 23:5\n",
      "\n",
      "harsh [1] 57:6\n",
      "\n",
      "follow [3] 45:20 47:15 48:9\n",
      "\n",
      "havoc [1] 3:19\n",
      "\n",
      "followed [1] 45:5\n",
      "\n",
      "hear [3] 3:3 10:25 35:13\n",
      "\n",
      "following [1] 15:7\n",
      "\n",
      "held [3] 6:24 23:9 43:9\n",
      "\n",
      "footnote [3] 35:2,23 39:18\n",
      "\n",
      "highlight [1] 49:7\n",
      "\n",
      "forced [1] 45:12\n",
      "\n",
      "hire [2] 20:5,6\n",
      "\n",
      "forcing [1] 33:2\n",
      "\n",
      "hired [1] 41:9\n",
      "\n",
      "form [3] 8:17 30:21 34:18\n",
      "\n",
      "history [4] 24:19 32:20 33:7 40:16\n",
      "\n",
      "formulation [1] 5:2\n",
      "\n",
      "hold [1] 47:1\n",
      "\n",
      "forth [2] 25:18 29:16\n",
      "\n",
      "hole [1] 41:17\n",
      "\n",
      "found [7] 7:24,25 8:3 13:2 27:13 Honor [24] 5:16 6:21 7:23 8:20 9:\n",
      "\n",
      "37:8,9\n",
      "\n",
      "12,22 10:16 11:2,19 12:12,24 13:\n",
      "\n",
      "foundational [1] 3:17\n",
      "\n",
      "14 14:7 17:12 18:25 20:10,18,25\n",
      "\n",
      "Foundry [1] 8:3\n",
      "\n",
      "23:3 26:18 48:16,25 52:1 55:8\n",
      "\n",
      "four [1] 7:2\n",
      "\n",
      "Honor's [1] 5:19\n",
      "\n",
      "Fourth [2] 24:2 43:8\n",
      "\n",
      "Honors [1] 56:20\n",
      "\n",
      "friend [11] 27:5,25 29:15 31:8 34: hook [6] 24:8,14 30:21 33:21 43:4,\n",
      "\n",
      "13 36:14 40:25 41:3,15 43:15 45: 6\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "however [1] 13:12\n",
      "\n",
      "full [2] 33:13,18\n",
      "\n",
      "huge [1] 54:23\n",
      "\n",
      "fundamental [1] 43:17\n",
      "\n",
      "hundreds [1] 16:1\n",
      "\n",
      "fundamentally [2] 39:14 53:17 hybrid [2] 32:3,3\n",
      "\n",
      "further [4] 4:11 26:12 54:25 58:7\n",
      "\n",
      "I\n",
      "\n",
      "G\n",
      "gaping [1] 41:17 Gebser [1] 55:15 General [4] 1:21 41:22 43:8 52:7 General's [1] 39:19\n",
      "\n",
      "idea [3] 20:4 40:11 50:20 identical [1] 37:6 identified [3] 13:23 49:6 51:15 identify [1] 25:5 ignored [2] 3:13,16\n",
      "\n",
      "illusions [1] 11:9 imagine [1] 22:22 implausible [1] 11:5 implement [1] 55:21 implements [1] 55:22 implicated [1] 46:21 important [4] 23:18,23 39:6 46:23 impose [3] 34:2 50:1,5 imposes [1] 34:1 imposing [1] 54:11 include [12] 8:12,18,18 9:11 17:5 25:15,21 31:20 35:16 49:15 51:23\n",
      "52:15 included [3] 9:8 14:23 15:2 includes [8] 7:1 17:11 18:21 38: 18,19 42:9 48:14 49:20 including [1] 15:18 inclusion [1] 25:1 inconsistent [1] 48:1 incorporate [2] 13:5 53:2 incorporates [3] 4:13 13:18 53: 10 incorporating [1] 53:19 independent [14] 15:24 23:20,21 39:20 41:2,6,8 52:6,9,11,13,18 55:\n",
      "23 57:10 indicators [1] 54:15 indirectly [1] 49:21 indisputably [1] 37:18 individual [9] 28:3 43:3 49:4,15 50:1,5,15,16 54:20 individuals [3] 33:3,14 41:23 industry [1] 22:21 inference [1] 50:4 information [2] 28:17,19 initially [1] 9:8 instance [1] 18:13 instances [1] 27:14 instead [3] 18:20,21 50:17 intend [3] 50:5 52:10 54:16 intended [2] 4:15 9:11 intentional [2] 38:2,4 interest [3] 4:21 33:23 49:21 interesting [2] 24:12,13 interests [1] 32:24 interpretation [3] 47:1,2 48:10 involved [1] 14:4 isn't [4] 18:9 20:16,16 28:21 issues [2] 46:20 51:10 itself [7] 28:5,7 30:18,23 34:7,10 44:3 IX [2] 55:15,15\n",
      "J\n",
      "JEFFREY [3] 1:19 2:6 26:20 job [1] 6:6 JOHN [1] 1:6 JONATHAN [3] 1:21 2:9 44:13 JOSHUA [5] 1:17 2:3,13 3:7 55:5 jump [1] 14:12 jumped [1] 3:14 jurisprudence [1] 56:15 Justice [96] 1:22 3:3,9 4:24 6:16, 22,23 7:11 8:8 9:9,16 10:10,20 11:\n",
      "\n",
      "Sheet 3\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "employer - Justice\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "Official - Subject to Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "7 12:5,6,20 13:7 14:3,15,16,17 15: likely [1] 12:6\n",
      "\n",
      "moment [1] 11:4\n",
      "\n",
      "7 16:8,14,19,23 17:2,24 18:7,14 limit [1] 26:4\n",
      "\n",
      "Monday [1] 1:10\n",
      "\n",
      "20:1,11,15,20 21:1,6,10,16,20 22: limits [1] 46:20\n",
      "\n",
      "Monell [1] 7:9\n",
      "\n",
      "5,10,14,17 23:6 26:15,19,22 27:19, line [2] 19:13 25:9\n",
      "\n",
      "moreover [1] 4:13\n",
      "\n",
      "22,24 28:11,14,23 29:19,25 30:3,7 lines [1] 4:13\n",
      "\n",
      "morning [1] 47:19\n",
      "\n",
      "31:12,23 32:11 33:24 34:25 35:10, list [4] 6:18 7:13,19 57:2\n",
      "\n",
      "most [11] 3:20 6:14 8:4,14 12:10\n",
      "\n",
      "14,15,22 36:11,20 37:13 38:15,25 listing [1] 8:14\n",
      "\n",
      "13:15 27:18 29:3 35:16,19 44:21\n",
      "\n",
      "39:8,24,25 40:2,10,14,18 41:19 little [2] 11:18 49:8\n",
      "\n",
      "MOUNT [3] 1:3 3:4 8:4\n",
      "\n",
      "42:5,6 44:10,16 48:8,18,24 49:1 local [2] 9:6 45:1\n",
      "\n",
      "moved [3] 19:22 24:25 57:16\n",
      "\n",
      "51:17 52:11,16,19,22 53:22 55:2 logical [1] 47:2\n",
      "\n",
      "much [4] 12:9 27:2 40:22 54:20\n",
      "\n",
      "58:9\n",
      "\n",
      "logically [1] 47:16\n",
      "\n",
      "municipal [1] 7:1\n",
      "\n",
      "K\n",
      "\n",
      "longer [1] 26:10\n",
      "\n",
      "must [2] 51:13 53:14\n",
      "\n",
      "look [11] 5:21 19:13 24:21 25:8 31: mystery [1] 42:15\n",
      "\n",
      "KAGAN [19] 14:16 16:8,14,19,23 17:2,24 18:7,14 33:24 34:25 39:\n",
      "\n",
      "8 37:6,25 38:2 39:25 40:10 41:5 looking [1] 44:1\n",
      "\n",
      "N\n",
      "\n",
      "24 41:19 42:5 51:17 52:11,16,19, loophole [2] 45:8 54:23\n",
      "\n",
      "namely [1] 22:1\n",
      "\n",
      "22\n",
      "\n",
      "Lorillard [1] 31:24\n",
      "\n",
      "Nassar [1] 37:24\n",
      "\n",
      "keep [1] 33:12\n",
      "\n",
      "lose [3] 10:15,23 57:25\n",
      "\n",
      "natural [3] 7:17 8:17 44:21\n",
      "\n",
      "key [3] 27:7 30:10 39:4\n",
      "\n",
      "lot [1] 11:8\n",
      "\n",
      "naturally [1] 51:1\n",
      "\n",
      "kind [5] 11:17 21:12 34:21 42:15 lower [4] 49:14,24 50:14 54:10\n",
      "\n",
      "nature [1] 8:13\n",
      "\n",
      "54:11\n",
      "\n",
      "ludicrous [1] 36:15\n",
      "\n",
      "necessarily [2] 11:23 41:13\n",
      "\n",
      "kinds [1] 41:12\n",
      "L\n",
      "\n",
      "M\n",
      "\n",
      "necessary [2] 18:1 24:16 need [10] 24:7 43:20,23 46:19 50:7\n",
      "\n",
      "made [7] 8:11 11:18 13:8 36:25 38: 51:5,6,10 54:13 56:10\n",
      "\n",
      "labeled [1] 17:22\n",
      "\n",
      "1,13 48:21\n",
      "\n",
      "needs [1] 56:9\n",
      "\n",
      "Labor [8] 5:7,10 7:14 32:5 33:10, major [1] 25:7\n",
      "\n",
      "neither [1] 56:21\n",
      "\n",
      "14 49:15,25\n",
      "\n",
      "majority [3] 13:8 35:3 36:6\n",
      "\n",
      "never [2] 9:10 23:8\n",
      "\n",
      "Lafayette [1] 8:2\n",
      "\n",
      "manager [1] 53:25\n",
      "\n",
      "New [3] 1:17,17 13:24\n",
      "\n",
      "laid [1] 41:10\n",
      "\n",
      "Manhart [6] 21:12,18 39:17 47:6,8 next [2] 3:4 11:6\n",
      "\n",
      "land [1] 8:5\n",
      "\n",
      "51:15\n",
      "\n",
      "Ninth [2] 3:11 31:5\n",
      "\n",
      "lands [1] 47:23\n",
      "\n",
      "manner [2] 27:17 28:2\n",
      "\n",
      "non-employee [2] 42:23 52:14\n",
      "\n",
      "language [29] 5:7,11,12,15 6:8,8,9 many [3] 35:2,3 36:16\n",
      "\n",
      "none [1] 46:3\n",
      "\n",
      "7:1,24 8:1 11:12,17 14:5 23:10 24: map [1] 19:11\n",
      "\n",
      "normal [2] 10:14,23\n",
      "\n",
      "23 32:9 35:18,19,20 36:1,5,7 37: matter [5] 1:12 8:15 31:21 32:13 notably [1] 3:20\n",
      "\n",
      "25 45:16 49:12,24 50:3 52:20 53: 58:13\n",
      "\n",
      "note [1] 43:7\n",
      "\n",
      "9\n",
      "\n",
      "mean [17] 4:9,11 12:8,17 15:23 16: noted [2] 33:15 39:16\n",
      "\n",
      "large [1] 35:25\n",
      "\n",
      "15 20:23 21:20,21 27:7 41:24 46: notes [1] 43:8\n",
      "\n",
      "largely [1] 32:10\n",
      "\n",
      "25 47:21 52:22 53:24 54:4 55:25 nothing [5] 27:2 38:5 41:16 46:22\n",
      "\n",
      "last [2] 7:2 29:20\n",
      "\n",
      "meaning [15] 10:11,14,15,23 13: 55:13\n",
      "\n",
      "latter [1] 30:1\n",
      "\n",
      "10,12,15 14:8,11 27:10 29:18 41: novel [1] 53:18\n",
      "\n",
      "law [7] 4:22 16:1 28:8 32:4 44:23 1 44:22 45:15 49:8\n",
      "\n",
      "nowadays [1] 33:5\n",
      "\n",
      "51:6 53:18\n",
      "\n",
      "meanings [1] 4:8\n",
      "\n",
      "number [3] 22:2,3 51:5\n",
      "\n",
      "layoffs [1] 41:10\n",
      "\n",
      "means [42] 4:6 10:7 11:2,3,23 12: numbers [3] 40:3,4,6\n",
      "\n",
      "lead [2] 43:16 48:12\n",
      "\n",
      "2 14:6,10,13 15:8 16:9,15 17:1,9, numerosity [10] 5:4,8 33:1 34:14,\n",
      "\n",
      "least [6] 6:2,25 17:16 34:19 52:6 19 18:22 19:9,17,23 22:20 25:14 22 35:7 36:8 37:15 46:13 53:19\n",
      "\n",
      "58:1 leave [4] 30:13 44:5 45:8 49:23\n",
      "\n",
      "27:6,10,15 28:3,6 29:10,14,17 31: 4 38:16,18 39:5 42:22 43:22 45:\n",
      "\n",
      "O\n",
      "\n",
      "leaves [2] 41:17 53:11\n",
      "\n",
      "17 46:24 47:2,10 48:2 56:7 57:10 obligation [2] 34:1,3\n",
      "\n",
      "left [1] 24:17\n",
      "\n",
      "meant [3] 17:4 28:15 52:12\n",
      "\n",
      "observation [1] 56:11\n",
      "\n",
      "legal [6] 28:4,6,9,16,18,20\n",
      "\n",
      "Meanwhile [1] 57:2\n",
      "\n",
      "obviously [2] 6:6 42:10\n",
      "\n",
      "legislative [4] 32:20 33:7 40:16 Medical [1] 49:23\n",
      "\n",
      "occupied [1] 57:8\n",
      "\n",
      "56:25\n",
      "\n",
      "mentioned [1] 23:13\n",
      "\n",
      "occur [1] 21:22\n",
      "\n",
      "legislatures [1] 36:17\n",
      "\n",
      "merely [2] 36:2 47:11\n",
      "\n",
      "October [1] 1:10\n",
      "\n",
      "LEMMON [3] 1:3 3:4 8:4\n",
      "\n",
      "middle [3] 4:3 47:17 53:21\n",
      "\n",
      "odd [3] 17:3 27:2 42:16\n",
      "\n",
      "lengthy [1] 35:2\n",
      "\n",
      "might [8] 22:25 30:1,13 33:4,4 36: offer [1] 45:13\n",
      "\n",
      "less [2] 27:2 54:21\n",
      "\n",
      "23 38:8 42:10\n",
      "\n",
      "offering [1] 46:25\n",
      "\n",
      "level [1] 56:25\n",
      "\n",
      "mildly [1] 56:23\n",
      "\n",
      "official [2] 43:11 50:18\n",
      "\n",
      "liability [30] 12:18 13:5,11,19,25 millions [1] 12:18\n",
      "\n",
      "Okay [4] 17:2 20:8 21:3 49:1\n",
      "\n",
      "15:14 17:21 21:14 34:17,18 49:4, mimic [1] 6:4\n",
      "\n",
      "older [1] 33:13\n",
      "\n",
      "11,16 50:1,6,16 51:1,20,22 52:4,5, mind [1] 46:24\n",
      "\n",
      "once [1] 42:13\n",
      "\n",
      "8 53:11,24 54:12,20 55:16,19,20 minimum [2] 23:18 57:23\n",
      "\n",
      "one [46] 4:14,18 6:17,17 8:10 10:5\n",
      "\n",
      "57:21\n",
      "\n",
      "minutes [1] 55:4\n",
      "\n",
      "14:12 18:5 19:3,7,18 20:3 21:4,23\n",
      "\n",
      "liable [8] 12:3 13:19 20:12 21:5 43: mischief [3] 4:5 14:1 58:4\n",
      "\n",
      "22:6,24 23:14 24:6,12 25:9 27:5,\n",
      "\n",
      "10,10 50:17,18\n",
      "\n",
      "mixed [1] 22:19\n",
      "\n",
      "18,19,19,20 28:25 29:4 30:18,21\n",
      "\n",
      "62\n",
      "31:10 32:4,25 34:8 35:9 36:9 37:2, 4 38:20 39:21 40:19 43:12 47:5 48:7 49:17 53:17 56:23 ones [2] 3:24 23:24 only [15] 6:16,17 10:1,2 23:23 25: 20,24 33:25 36:4 48:7 49:9 50:18, 22,23 51:10 operate [2] 48:2 53:14 opposite [1] 29:14 oral [7] 1:12 2:2,5,8 3:7 26:20 44: 13 order [1] 45:11 ordinary [7] 44:22 45:15,19 48:4 52:6 53:3,7 organizations [2] 7:15,19 organized [5] 6:12,18 7:12,15 8:5 original [2] 8:10 29:17 Originally [1] 25:14 other [39] 9:23 10:12,24 11:9 15:5 16:11 18:8,11,11 19:3,23 24:16 27:14 31:1,11,24 32:5 33:9 34:6, 23 35:7 36:6,7,9,25 37:2,5 39:3 42:11,19 44:6,8 45:21 47:6 49:13 51:8,15 53:19 54:22 otherwise [3] 8:19 11:24 39:15 out [14] 4:21 7:25 19:11 22:7 24:17 25:19 29:1 30:11,13 32:6 33:16 37:14 56:14 57:5 outer [1] 46:20 outsourcing [3] 45:10 47:4 54:23 over [3] 14:12 47:23 54:2 own [1] 37:23 owners [1] 8:6\n",
      "P\n",
      "p.m [1] 58:12 PAGE [8] 2:2 5:23 11:13 14:10 19: 11,13 35:24 49:18 pages [2] 29:4 46:2 parity [1] 3:25 parroting [1] 36:3 part [7] 14:23 15:2 19:22 22:1,1 28: 24 32:8 particular [4] 4:17 24:24 29:7 50: 25 partly [1] 33:10 partnership [1] 7:20 partnerships [1] 7:14 parts [1] 19:18 passed [2] 36:13,19 people [5] 9:4 13:22 33:3,12 41:13 per [1] 34:20 perfect [1] 56:21 perhaps [5] 5:1,9 11:16 27:18 29: 3 peripheral [1] 57:14 permissible [1] 9:19 pernicious [1] 32:14 person [31] 6:11,15 8:22 9:3 14:6 15:1 16:20 17:4,10 18:2,4,17,20 22:18,20 28:10 37:8,13,22 38:20 41:25 45:4,23 49:20 52:20,24 54: 3,7 56:4,8,8 person's [2] 28:4,6\n",
      "\n",
      "Sheet 4\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "Justice - person's\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "personal [1] 32:24 personally [1] 50:17 persons [13] 6:13,19 7:6,12,13,16 8:5 10:5 15:17 17:22 25:25 26:1,7 Petitioner [13] 1:4,18 2:4,14 3:8 45:11 46:25 47:18 52:2 53:1,11\n",
      "54:9 55:6 Petitioner's [5] 45:7 46:18 47:10 48:1 51:18 phrase [7] 4:5 14:10 17:8 24:3 27: 7,15 29:11 phraseology [1] 7:5 phrases [1] 27:16 pick [1] 53:5 picks [1] 5:6 place [1] 30:14 places [3] 30:17 41:7 51:16 plain [2] 26:24 48:9 plainly [1] 44:4 plan [1] 41:11 plausible [2] 31:15 47:25 please [3] 3:10 26:23 44:17 pocket [1] 12:9 point [9] 13:7 19:14 23:15 24:15 34:5 37:23 39:2 49:17 56:13 pointed [1] 37:14 points [3] 27:25 51:25 55:8 policy [1] 32:13 political [17] 7:6 8:2 14:22 15:18 25:16,22 26:25 34:1,11 35:4,6,17\n",
      "37:16,19 43:22 44:19 48:11 Pons [1] 31:24 position [4] 9:25 11:22 20:14 43:1 possibility [1] 15:25 possible [2] 9:24 22:10 possibly [1] 25:24 potential [1] 51:7 potentially [1] 29:1 pre-amendment [1] 6:8 preceding [1] 4:12 precluded [1] 45:24 predictably [1] 3:19 predominant [1] 34:18 premise [2] 5:17,18 preposterous [1] 11:10 presented [2] 43:21 54:19 pretty [1] 11:11 prevent [1] 47:7 prevented [1] 46:4 previous [1] 28:24 previously [1] 13:23 principal [1] 52:8 principle [1] 53:18 principles [8] 40:7,25 42:13 43:11 51:5 52:3 53:4 55:22 private [15] 3:23 5:4 6:19 8:13 22: 11,17 23:24 24:9,10 28:17 34:3,\n",
      "15 35:8 57:8,21 problem [6] 15:4 23:6 40:22 45:11 46:10 51:14 problematic [1] 15:21 problems [4] 18:12 40:21 57:2,13 procedure/substance [1] 56:16 produce [1] 14:13\n",
      "\n",
      "63\n",
      "\n",
      "Official - Subject to Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "proof [1] 37:2\n",
      "\n",
      "references [1] 30:16\n",
      "\n",
      "7 26:17 55:4,5,7\n",
      "\n",
      "properly [1] 54:19\n",
      "\n",
      "referred [1] 56:18\n",
      "\n",
      "rough [1] 34:21\n",
      "\n",
      "proposed [1] 4:19\n",
      "\n",
      "referring [1] 17:13\n",
      "\n",
      "routinely [1] 10:18\n",
      "\n",
      "protection [2] 23:23 57:22\n",
      "\n",
      "regard [1] 35:17\n",
      "\n",
      "rule [1] 52:7\n",
      "\n",
      "protections [1] 3:22\n",
      "\n",
      "regardless [7] 27:1 33:20 34:9 35: ruled [1] 13:8\n",
      "\n",
      "protects [1] 23:19\n",
      "\n",
      "4,6 37:19 44:19\n",
      "\n",
      "runs [2] 51:1 53:25\n",
      "\n",
      "provide [1] 24:7\n",
      "\n",
      "regime [1] 30:24\n",
      "\n",
      "S\n",
      "\n",
      "provision [5] 29:1 30:10 31:13 42: regional [1] 57:15\n",
      "\n",
      "18 48:11\n",
      "\n",
      "reject [1] 50:8\n",
      "\n",
      "same [20] 14:11,20 16:10 19:15 26:\n",
      "\n",
      "provisions [3] 31:1 32:6 37:7\n",
      "\n",
      "rejected [1] 44:24\n",
      "\n",
      "3 31:14 36:5 37:18,20 38:13 40:2\n",
      "\n",
      "proviso [1] 26:9\n",
      "\n",
      "related [1] 38:12\n",
      "\n",
      "45:6,14,24 46:5,11 48:3,9 49:24\n",
      "\n",
      "public [11] 3:21,23 5:5 22:15 23: relates [2] 3:13,17\n",
      "\n",
      "53:14\n",
      "\n",
      "24 24:10 33:20 57:5,7,19,24\n",
      "\n",
      "relations [1] 33:6\n",
      "\n",
      "saying [7] 9:18,20 12:24 15:12 18:\n",
      "\n",
      "purpose [7] 3:24 6:3 19:25 21:23 relationship [1] 56:12\n",
      "\n",
      "21 21:9 55:18\n",
      "\n",
      "26:5 33:11 57:7\n",
      "\n",
      "remainder [1] 26:13\n",
      "\n",
      "says [25] 7:13 8:15,25 9:2 17:8,14\n",
      "\n",
      "pushes [1] 4:18\n",
      "\n",
      "remedies [1] 51:6\n",
      "\n",
      "22:18 27:6 28:2 29:10,15 34:13\n",
      "\n",
      "put [6] 7:2 9:22 31:1 38:18 46:11, remedy [1] 32:16\n",
      "\n",
      "36:3,14 40:5 41:1,24 43:21 44:4\n",
      "\n",
      "12\n",
      "\n",
      "remove [1] 38:8\n",
      "\n",
      "49:19 51:21 52:20 53:13 56:3,7\n",
      "\n",
      "putting [2] 45:2,3\n",
      "\n",
      "repeats [1] 29:11\n",
      "\n",
      "scenario [1] 23:7\n",
      "\n",
      "Q\n",
      "\n",
      "reply [5] 11:8,13 34:13 41:1 47:18 scenarios [1] 21:4\n",
      "\n",
      "report [1] 33:15\n",
      "\n",
      "scheme [1] 3:20\n",
      "\n",
      "qualification [2] 23:1 29:8\n",
      "\n",
      "representative [6] 28:4,6,9,16,18 second [14] 3:13,14,15 15:15 16:\n",
      "\n",
      "question [23] 5:18,19 10:21,21 21: 50:18\n",
      "\n",
      "24 19:16,17,19 26:5 43:3 44:24\n",
      "\n",
      "13 23:22 29:22 32:22 35:25 39:1, request [1] 58:8\n",
      "\n",
      "47:11,13 57:9\n",
      "\n",
      "4,7,9 42:8,21,25 43:3,5,21 49:3 required [1] 24:14\n",
      "\n",
      "secondly [1] 30:22\n",
      "\n",
      "50:14 51:4,10\n",
      "\n",
      "requirement [8] 5:4,8 33:1 34:23 Secretary [1] 33:14\n",
      "\n",
      "questions [8] 26:12 42:4 43:14 44: 35:8 37:15 46:13 53:20\n",
      "\n",
      "Section [5] 30:24 41:4,5 49:18 53:\n",
      "\n",
      "8 46:15 49:5 55:1 58:7\n",
      "\n",
      "requirements [1] 34:14\n",
      "\n",
      "4\n",
      "\n",
      "quite [3] 32:11,12 46:2\n",
      "\n",
      "reserve [1] 26:13\n",
      "\n",
      "see [11] 11:14,15,17 15:3 21:8 25:\n",
      "\n",
      "quotes [1] 41:4\n",
      "\n",
      "resist [1] 43:25\n",
      "\n",
      "10,11 30:15 40:11 46:2 50:3\n",
      "\n",
      "R\n",
      "\n",
      "resolve [4] 18:19 46:20 50:7 51:4 seem [3] 14:24 33:4 54:6\n",
      "\n",
      "race [4] 33:5,6,22 36:24 racial [2] 31:16 32:17 raised [1] 35:11 rather [2] 5:11 12:7 rationality [1] 6:5 reach [1] 49:3 reached [1] 46:16 reaches [2] 47:12,17 read [11] 4:2 8:17 9:14,17,19,25 29: 15 41:3 47:25 49:15 53:16 reading [25] 4:19 7:18 9:20 10:3,3 24:1 25:2 30:4,13 41:15,20 44:22\n",
      "45:8 47:10 48:4 54:21 56:21,22\n",
      "57:3,14,15,17,24 58:2,5 ready [1] 44:24 real [1] 46:17 realize [1] 47:18 really [6] 28:12,14 32:12 44:4 56: 21 57:4 reason [15] 15:7 19:1 23:4 25:20 29:6 30:15 31:23 33:19 36:22 44:\n",
      "2 49:9 50:8 51:9 54:12 55:11 reasonable [3] 10:3 39:10 58:2 reasonably [1] 36:25 reasons [1] 44:20 REBUTTAL [3] 2:12 26:14 55:5 receipts [1] 34:20 recognize [1] 56:20 recourse [1] 57:25 red [2] 19:13 25:9 redefine [1] 15:23 reference [2] 51:20 53:9\n",
      "\n",
      "respect [9] 14:11,21,25 17:25 32: 16 38:24 39:5 48:10 49:22 respectfully [1] 58:8 respondeat [20] 3:22 13:5,11,18 15:14 23:11 39:15,22 40:24 41:14 42:12 49:11 51:20 52:3,8 53:3 55: 11,16,21 57:20 Respondent [2] 45:16 52:1 Respondents [18] 1:7,20,24 2:7, 11 4:7 13:17,21 14:9 15:22 16:6 23:19 26:21 44:15 56:24 57:3,9, 18 Respondents' [5] 20:13 23:25 49: 5 57:16,24 responsible [2] 52:9 54:7 responsive [1] 42:6 rest [3] 4:16 32:9 41:3 restatement [3] 41:5,8 53:4 result [5] 11:20 27:3 47:19 52:10 54:17 results [2] 11:10,15 reverse [1] 58:8 rewrite [1] 57:9 Ricketts [2] 7:7 8:3 rights [1] 57:20 ROBERTS [10] 3:3 7:11 14:15,17 26:15,19 44:10 53:22 55:2 58:9 ROSENKRANZ [51] 1:17 2:3,13 3: 6,7,9 4:24 5:16 6:20,23 7:22 8:20 9:12,21 10:10,16 11:1,19 12:12, 23 13:14 14:7,16 15:6 16:8,13,17, 21,25 17:12 18:5,10,24 20:9,12,18, 25 21:3,8,11,18 22:4,8,11,16 23:3,\n",
      "\n",
      "seems [1] 12:10 seen [1] 6:15 sense [9] 4:21,25 9:7,10 28:18 30:\n",
      "9 37:6 48:20 49:10 sentence [19] 3:13,15 4:11 15:18\n",
      "16:9,11,24 17:14 19:16,17,24 26:\n",
      "6,8,8 38:23 40:15 41:3 47:14,22 sentences [1] 19:7 separate [1] 4:17 separately [1] 30:23 seriously [1] 47:10 serve [1] 21:23 serving [1] 19:24 set [3] 6:22 20:4 22:6 sets [1] 20:21 shall [3] 25:15,17 51:21 shells [3] 47:9 51:23 52:23 shop [1] 53:25 side [10] 9:23 11:9 19:23 24:25 25:\n",
      "1 33:21,22 34:15 39:3 45:21 side's [1] 15:5 signal [2] 10:6 24:2 signals [2] 4:18 23:13 signify [1] 10:7 similar [1] 35:19 simple [2] 14:8 50:20 simpler [1] 24:15 simply [4] 31:4 43:19 47:24 52:2 since [1] 58:2 singled [1] 57:5 situation [2] 28:10 30:12 sizable [1] 45:8 size [12] 26:10 27:1 33:21 34:9,24\n",
      "\n",
      "Sheet 5\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "personal - size\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "64\n",
      "\n",
      "Official - Subject to Review\n",
      "\n",
      "\n",
      "35:5,6,17 37:20 40:23 44:20 54: stripping [1] 3:21\n",
      "\n",
      "58:2\n",
      "\n",
      "21\n",
      "\n",
      "24\n",
      "\n",
      "strong [3] 11:11 50:8 54:15\n",
      "\n",
      "therefore [3] 26:1,7 32:15\n",
      "\n",
      "unless [4] 8:18 9:8,10 52:10\n",
      "\n",
      "skips [1] 47:22\n",
      "\n",
      "structural [1] 38:2\n",
      "\n",
      "they've [2] 13:10,12\n",
      "\n",
      "unlike [1] 52:7\n",
      "\n",
      "slight [2] 46:2,8\n",
      "\n",
      "structure [1] 19:15\n",
      "\n",
      "third [3] 23:14 45:7 57:18\n",
      "\n",
      "unlikely [1] 12:10\n",
      "\n",
      "slightly [1] 9:22\n",
      "\n",
      "structured [1] 8:21\n",
      "\n",
      "third-party [4] 15:24 55:19 57:11, unrealistic [1] 57:1\n",
      "\n",
      "small [7] 31:21 33:2 34:1,3 45:1, stuff [1] 44:6\n",
      "\n",
      "25\n",
      "\n",
      "untenable [2] 56:24 57:4\n",
      "\n",
      "10 47:4\n",
      "\n",
      "subcontractor [1] 15:24\n",
      "\n",
      "though [2] 11:14 56:17\n",
      "\n",
      "up [10] 5:6 6:18 9:2 16:6 20:4,21\n",
      "\n",
      "Solicitor [4] 1:21 39:19 41:22 43:7 subdivision [8] 14:22 18:21,23 25: thread [1] 46:14\n",
      "\n",
      "22:6,19 44:9 53:5\n",
      "\n",
      "solution [1] 37:14\n",
      "\n",
      "17 26:2 34:2 43:23 44:19\n",
      "\n",
      "three [2] 36:5 44:20\n",
      "\n",
      "urge [5] 5:21 31:8 41:2 43:18,25\n",
      "\n",
      "solve [1] 51:14\n",
      "\n",
      "subdivisions [14] 7:6 8:2 15:19 threshold [3] 47:12,16,22\n",
      "\n",
      "urges [1] 31:9\n",
      "\n",
      "someone [2] 6:6 28:20\n",
      "\n",
      "17:6,25 25:22 27:1 34:12 35:4,6, throughout [2] 27:13 45:17\n",
      "\n",
      "urging [1] 53:2\n",
      "\n",
      "someone's [1] 28:9\n",
      "\n",
      "17 37:16,19 48:12\n",
      "\n",
      "Title [40] 5:2,3,11,12,14 6:1,4,7,9 9: usage [2] 44:23 45:17\n",
      "\n",
      "sometimes [1] 12:15\n",
      "\n",
      "subject [5] 13:25 15:14 26:3,7 46: 14 12:14,21,22,24 19:6 23:10 24: uses [4] 11:8 29:13 49:24 54:22\n",
      "\n",
      "sophistication [1] 57:1\n",
      "\n",
      "13\n",
      "\n",
      "11 31:10,13 32:8,22 33:1,7,17 37: using [1] 5:10\n",
      "\n",
      "sorry [3] 12:23 16:21 28:5 sort [3] 8:13 11:15 28:18 SOTOMAYOR [17] 6:16,22,24 8:8\n",
      "9:9,16 13:7 27:19,22,24 28:11,14,\n",
      "23 29:19 30:1,3,7 source [3] 18:8,9 28:24 sources [1] 18:6 speaking [3] 27:22 34:16 42:17 specifically [1] 52:10 spillover [1] 51:7 Spirt [1] 39:18 square [1] 47:20 squaring [1] 53:12 stamp [1] 33:16 stand [1] 43:2 Standards [2] 5:7,11\n",
      "\n",
      "submit [1] 31:3\n",
      "\n",
      "4,11 38:6 41:18 44:25 45:20,23\n",
      "\n",
      "submitted [2] 58:11,13\n",
      "\n",
      "46:7 47:7 55:12,14,15,15 56:13,\n",
      "\n",
      "subsection [4] 8:23,24 26:3 30:10 15,19\n",
      "\n",
      "subset [1] 50:11\n",
      "\n",
      "together [1] 8:6\n",
      "\n",
      "subsidiaries [8] 20:5,21 21:2,5,14, took [2] 19:22 24:24\n",
      "\n",
      "25 22:6,23\n",
      "\n",
      "Torts [1] 53:5\n",
      "\n",
      "subsidiary [2] 20:17 22:1\n",
      "\n",
      "touch [1] 46:15\n",
      "\n",
      "substantive [3] 32:4,7 56:18\n",
      "\n",
      "tougher [1] 32:16\n",
      "\n",
      "subtract [2] 9:7,10\n",
      "\n",
      "train [1] 43:15\n",
      "\n",
      "subtracts [2] 8:24 9:5\n",
      "\n",
      "treated [2] 14:20 30:23\n",
      "\n",
      "sue [5] 12:7,8,9 54:3,6\n",
      "\n",
      "treating [1] 3:23\n",
      "\n",
      "sued [2] 12:15,21\n",
      "\n",
      "treatment [1] 57:6\n",
      "\n",
      "suggest [3] 5:10 41:22 42:10\n",
      "\n",
      "treats [1] 45:13\n",
      "\n",
      "suggesting [2] 18:18 53:8\n",
      "\n",
      "trigger [1] 49:11\n",
      "\n",
      "suggests [3] 41:23 45:22 54:9\n",
      "\n",
      "true [7] 8:9 11:24 34:16 44:20 46:\n",
      "\n",
      "suit [1] 31:17\n",
      "\n",
      "18 47:15 51:17\n",
      "\n",
      "V\n",
      "valuable [1] 57:20 variation [1] 23:14 various [1] 30:19 varying [1] 50:24 vast [1] 36:6 versus [4] 3:5 31:24 33:16 45:23 view [1] 17:19 VII [38] 5:2,3,11,13,14 6:1,4,7,9 9: 14 12:14,21,22,25 19:6 23:10 24: 11 31:10,14 32:8,23 33:1,8,18 37: 4,12 38:6 41:18 44:25 45:20,23 46:7 47:7 55:12,14 56:13,15,19 violation [1] 28:21 vulnerability [1] 46:17\n",
      "\n",
      "Stanford [1] 1:19\n",
      "\n",
      "superfluous [4] 25:3 29:22 30:4,9 truth [1] 27:8\n",
      "\n",
      "W\n",
      "\n",
      "start [8] 4:3,22 5:17 8:22 11:21 27: superior [20] 3:22 13:5,11,18 15: trying [3] 19:12 22:22 38:9\n",
      "\n",
      "wait [1] 20:15\n",
      "\n",
      "4 39:2 56:3\n",
      "\n",
      "14 23:11 39:16,23 40:25 41:14 42: turn [3] 5:17 21:24 29:2\n",
      "\n",
      "wanted [6] 5:12,13 22:25 40:6,11\n",
      "\n",
      "started [1] 10:6\n",
      "\n",
      "12 49:11 51:20 52:4,8 53:3 55:12, turning [1] 21:14\n",
      "\n",
      "42:16\n",
      "\n",
      "starts [1] 47:22\n",
      "\n",
      "16,22 57:21\n",
      "\n",
      "turns [1] 46:22\n",
      "\n",
      "wants [1] 54:3\n",
      "\n",
      "state [13] 14:21 25:16,17 29:23 34: supervisor [1] 12:17\n",
      "\n",
      "Twelve [1] 57:14\n",
      "\n",
      "war [1] 55:10\n",
      "\n",
      "11 35:11,15,25 36:16,17 43:22 44: supervisors [2] 43:4 50:12\n",
      "\n",
      "two [28] 3:11,25 4:8,20 7:22 9:17, Washington [2] 1:9,22\n",
      "\n",
      "18 45:1\n",
      "\n",
      "supply [1] 23:23\n",
      "\n",
      "24 15:10 16:15 17:20 19:7,17 21: wave [2] 57:12,13\n",
      "\n",
      "stated [1] 58:3\n",
      "\n",
      "supporting [3] 1:23 2:11 44:15\n",
      "\n",
      "4 23:13 24:21 30:17 34:6 37:5 39: way [29] 4:2 6:17 9:1,13,14,18,20,\n",
      "\n",
      "STATES [21] 1:1,13,23 2:10 8:12, supposed [1] 47:6\n",
      "\n",
      "1 42:3 43:14 44:25 45:13 46:6 49: 23 15:11 16:6 17:5 18:16,19,20\n",
      "\n",
      "16 9:1,6 15:19 25:16,20,21 30:20 SUPREME [2] 1:1,13\n",
      "\n",
      "5 52:25 53:12,16\n",
      "\n",
      "19:1 25:3,24 26:11 32:19 45:14,\n",
      "\n",
      "35:3,3,16,19 36:2,5,12 44:14\n",
      "\n",
      "T\n",
      "\n",
      "two-sentence [1] 3:12\n",
      "\n",
      "19 46:11 47:13,20,25 48:3,5 53:\n",
      "\n",
      "statute [50] 3:24 4:2 5:6 7:2 8:6,11, 15,21 9:17 12:3 14:23 18:25 19:5, 6,8,14 20:8 21:22 22:7,13 25:3,6 27:16,23 28:2,7,15,25 29:15 32:5, 9 33:10,25 34:22 35:12 42:18,20 43:20 44:2,3 47:25 48:6,20 49:12 54:16,22 56:3 57:6,10 58:3 statutes [13] 24:7 27:17 35:11,15 36:1,16,18 37:5 45:18 49:13 50:1 51:8 54:10 statutory [13] 3:20 4:18 5:23 10:1, 18 18:11 19:4 24:18,19 25:10,12 27:7 52:19 step [1] 35:9 steps [1] 39:1 still [9] 13:9 28:23 29:2,23 35:7 43: 2,5 50:13 53:11 strange [4] 18:19,25 19:1 26:10 stretch [1] 12:18 strictly [1] 34:16 striking [1] 7:25 stripped [1] 57:19\n",
      "\n",
      "talked [1] 10:4 talks [1] 30:19 taxes [1] 8:7 technically [1] 43:9 tells [1] 20:24 template [2] 44:25 45:5 temptation [1] 44:1 tension [1] 13:13 term [22] 4:8 14:5 16:9,10,10,11,13, 14,19,20,23,25 17:8,10,18 18:17, 22 22:18 25:13,17 38:19 43:22 terms [5] 36:8 43:20 45:15 50:25 51:13 text [8] 26:24 27:4 44:22 45:13 47: 20 48:5,9 54:21 themselves [1] 56:1 theory [7] 14:21 45:12 48:2,9,19 51:19 53:10 there's [17] 4:9 7:20 10:5 14:3 18: 1 19:13 23:4 27:1 28:25 29:22 39: 18 42:3 47:19 48:6 55:20 56:14\n",
      "\n",
      "typically [1] 56:18\n",
      "U\n",
      "U.S [2] 27:13,14 ultimate [1] 5:18 ultimately [1] 45:12 unambiguous [3] 18:4 31:4 43: 19 under [24] 8:6 12:3,14,21,22,24 16: 1 20:13 22:12,12 24:9,10 30:4,24 33:17 34:17 38:7 40:24 42:12 43: 10 53:4 54:24 57:16,24 undermine [1] 15:4 understand [2] 18:14 53:1 understanding [3] 38:23 48:20 50:9 understood [3] 6:2,3 18:24 unfathomable [1] 57:4 ungrammatical [1] 56:23 UNITED [7] 1:1,13,23 2:10 25:16, 20 44:14 universe [5] 4:10 15:13 17:18,20,\n",
      "\n",
      "15 54:21 ways [6] 9:18,24 15:10 30:19 36:7 42:19 whatever [2] 46:24 54:2 whatsoever [1] 42:22 Whereupon [1] 58:12 whether [5] 24:13 29:22 39:4 42:9,\n",
      "21 who's [1] 41:10 whole [1] 57:7 wholly [1] 30:23 widespread [1] 32:15 wildly [1] 56:24 will [4] 20:5,6,6 36:24 wished [1] 46:7 within [4] 17:19 19:7,9 25:22 without [8] 3:15 7:8,23 16:4 23:1 35:17 38:21 58:4 wonder [1] 41:19 word [11] 23:1 29:10,13 32:2 37:8, 9 42:10,13,19 43:20 57:22\n",
      "\n",
      "Sheet 6\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "size - word\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "65\n",
      "Official - Subject to Review\n",
      "\n",
      "wording [2] 56:2,2 \n",
      " words [6] 3:11 7:3 11:7 16:11 24:\n",
      " 24 34:23 work [1] 53:13 workforce [1] 33:12 worse [1] 3:23 worst [1] 56:23 wrap [1] 44:9 wreaks [1] 3:19 written [2] 19:1 38:19 wrote [1] 38:17 Wyoming [1] 33:16\n",
      "X\n",
      "\n",
      "XYZ [7] 20:2,10,12,14,20,24 21:1\n",
      "Y\n",
      "year [1] 34:20 years [3] 16:2 44:25 46:6 York [2] 1:17,17 yourself [2] 21:14,25\n",
      "\n",
      "Sheet 7\n",
      "\n",
      "Heritage Reporting Corporation\n",
      "\n",
      "wording - yourself\n",
      "\n",
      "\f",
      "\n"
     ]
    }
   ],
   "source": [
    "print(text1)"
   ]
  },
  {
   "cell_type": "code",
   "execution_count": 3,
   "metadata": {},
   "outputs": [],
   "source": [
    "justices = re.findall('JUSTICE[A-Z\\s]+:',text)"
   ]
  },
  {
   "cell_type": "code",
   "execution_count": 5,
   "metadata": {},
   "outputs": [],
   "source": [
    "def unique(lst):\n",
    "    uni = []\n",
    "    for i in lst:\n",
    "        if i not in uni:\n",
    "            uni += [i]\n",
    "    return uni"
   ]
  },
  {
   "cell_type": "code",
   "execution_count": 18,
   "metadata": {},
   "outputs": [
    {
     "data": {
      "text/plain": [
       "['JUSTICE ROBERTS:',\n",
       " 'JUSTICE KENNEDY:',\n",
       " 'JUSTICE ALITO:',\n",
       " 'JUSTICE GINSBURG:',\n",
       " 'JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR:',\n",
       " 'JUSTICE SCALIA:',\n",
       " 'JUSTICE KAGAN:',\n",
       " 'JUSTICE BREYER:']"
      ]
     },
     "execution_count": 18,
     "metadata": {},
     "output_type": "execute_result"
    }
   ],
   "source": [
    "unique(re.findall('JUSTICE[A-Z\\s]+:',text2))"
   ]
  },
  {
   "cell_type": "code",
   "execution_count": 16,
   "metadata": {
    "scrolled": true
   },
   "outputs": [
    {
     "data": {
      "text/plain": [
       "['JUSTICE ROBERTS:',\n",
       " 'JUSTICE GINSBURG:',\n",
       " 'JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR:',\n",
       " 'JUSTICE GORSUCH:',\n",
       " 'JUSTICE KAGAN:',\n",
       " 'JUSTICE BREYER:',\n",
       " 'JUSTICE ALITO:']"
      ]
     },
     "execution_count": 16,
     "metadata": {},
     "output_type": "execute_result"
    }
   ],
   "source": [
    "unique(re.findall('JUSTICE[A-Z\\s]+:',text1))"
   ]
  },
  {
   "cell_type": "code",
   "execution_count": 6,
   "metadata": {},
   "outputs": [
    {
     "data": {
      "text/plain": [
       "['JUSTICE ROBERTS:',\n",
       " 'JUSTICE KENNEDY:',\n",
       " 'JUSTICE GINSBURG:',\n",
       " 'JUSTICE KAGAN:',\n",
       " 'JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR:',\n",
       " 'JUSTICE GORSUCH:',\n",
       " 'JUSTICE ALITO:']"
      ]
     },
     "execution_count": 6,
     "metadata": {},
     "output_type": "execute_result"
    }
   ],
   "source": [
    "unique(justices)"
   ]
  },
  {
   "cell_type": "code",
   "execution_count": 23,
   "metadata": {},
   "outputs": [
    {
     "data": {
      "text/plain": [
       "'No. 17-530'"
      ]
     },
     "execution_count": 23,
     "metadata": {},
     "output_type": "execute_result"
    }
   ],
   "source": [
    "unique(re.findall('No.\\s\\d+-\\d+',text))[0]"
   ]
  },
  {
   "cell_type": "code",
   "execution_count": 9,
   "metadata": {},
   "outputs": [],
   "source": [
    "def case_no(txt):\n",
    "    return unique(re.findall('No.\\s\\d+-\\d+',text))"
   ]
  },
  {
   "cell_type": "code",
   "execution_count": 10,
   "metadata": {},
   "outputs": [
    {
     "data": {
      "text/plain": [
       "['No. 17-530']"
      ]
     },
     "execution_count": 10,
     "metadata": {},
     "output_type": "execute_result"
    }
   ],
   "source": [
    "case_no(text1)"
   ]
  },
  {
   "cell_type": "code",
   "execution_count": 32,
   "metadata": {},
   "outputs": [],
   "source": [
    "def justices(texts):\n",
    "    d = {}\n",
    "    for txt in texts:\n",
    "        j = re.findall('JUSTICE[A-Z\\s]+:',txt)\n",
    "        justice = unique(j)\n",
    "        num = case_no(txt)[0]\n",
    "    for n in num:\n",
    "        d[n] = justice\n",
    "    return justice"
   ]
  },
  {
   "cell_type": "code",
   "execution_count": null,
   "metadata": {},
   "outputs": [],
   "source": []
  },
  {
   "cell_type": "code",
   "execution_count": 33,
   "metadata": {},
   "outputs": [
    {
     "data": {
      "text/plain": [
       "['JUSTICE ROBERTS:',\n",
       " 'JUSTICE GINSBURG:',\n",
       " 'JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR:',\n",
       " 'JUSTICE GORSUCH:',\n",
       " 'JUSTICE KAGAN:',\n",
       " 'JUSTICE BREYER:',\n",
       " 'JUSTICE ALITO:']"
      ]
     },
     "execution_count": 33,
     "metadata": {},
     "output_type": "execute_result"
    }
   ],
   "source": [
    "justices(t)"
   ]
  },
  {
   "cell_type": "code",
   "execution_count": null,
   "metadata": {},
   "outputs": [],
   "source": []
  },
  {
   "cell_type": "code",
   "execution_count": null,
   "metadata": {},
   "outputs": [],
   "source": []
  }
 ],
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