Adjust security loadouts #1854
Adjust security loadouts #1854
Conversation
There was a problem hiding this comment.
Yum. The net removal of content.
I have words in the review (not really useful ones, just noting things) but otherwise this looks like normal loadouts yaml and commenting / uncommenting of files. Before I approve, I want to make sure this is a good idea because I can envision all security players seething at The Net Removal Of Content ™️
Here's the things I and others take issue with:
- Why is the gold star being removed from the loadout? I think that's just a fun playtime marker thing for if you've played too much security. Literal gold star.
- Why are the security winter boots being removed from the loadout? Secoffs on Glacier will get snow in their normal station issued shoes or jackboots / combat boots. It's so sad. There's also some removal of winter coats - what if I'm a lizard on glacier, and I'm HoS, and there's no mapped-in coats? What do I do?
- Why can't we keep the noir detective stuff from Wiz, and why do you keep trying to 1984 it? People have issues with that, if you have issues, it could be resprited. I know you explained this to me in my DMs before, but I want you to say it in front of the class (read: people looking at the Delta-V repo.)
- Why is the clownsec thing being removed? That's the secdrobe's contra inventory, as blitz has mentioned. I think it'd be funny for it to stay there in the narrow situation someone hacks to get that.
|
Thanks Blitz for making this have more than just my eyes on it 😸 |
|
I’d go on a long rant but the majority of it was said by adei and blitz. I am not a fan of the removal of this much content without nearly as many things to take its place. As stated previously, net removal of content is bad and will make a lot of people upset. |
2.5 Good point I'll map them into the HoS and Warden dressers
|
Why would any vending machine be stocked with contraband? Should we just remove that game mechanic now? Maybe it was a janitor syndicate agent from a previous shift? Maybe a cargo tech added a little extra to the restock? It's up to the players and whatever story they make up for it. |
Some valid reasons. Will address on a case by case basis. |
ghost
added
Status: Do Not Merge
Add winter coats to HoS and warden dressers
Add sterile mask box to corpsman locker. Just in case.
Readd spacelaw book
Readd spacelaw books
I think more input wouldn't hurt. We have the rather unused Discussions page on Github. Or someone could make a thread for it too in the discord, because not everyone has a git account. If we want to avoid the previous security resprite scenario, it'd be nice to actually ask the community first. PRs don't need to be speedmerged, it can wait a week. |
This is one of the entire reasons why I believe Game Directors should be discussing with the community like staff (though very rarely) were prior to their existance. |
|
As someone within the community, I also do NOT like the removal of this much stuff. I'm not even someone that plays sec (yet), but this is just. Ridiculious, in my opinion.
|
|
A few thoughts, though I think I'm partially repeating what most people have said at this point:
|
I actually have some complaints as well, and maybe a few suggestions.
|
should keep in mind upstream tried this for a bit then ultimately reverted it fwiw something nobodys mentioned about det gear is that the funny noir trenchcoat is instantly recognizable as a detective, making det a renamed secoff will just dilute the role even more |
The new senior officer uniform, unlike the other uniforms, is a "true jumpsuit"; a one piece siren suit, boilersuit, or set of coveralls that minimises snags and covers a majority of the body. Uniforms featuring skirts are still available in red, grey, and blue for security personnel.
On the contrary, and as previously mentioned, it's anachronistic and we've additionally elected to avoid the hard boiled detective trope. If people want to dress up as a noir detective, they'll be very much welcome to do so outside the security department.
We will be removing the winter boots until they are resprited, either by myself or by someone who cares enough to do it before I get around to it. If people really care about the winter boots so little that no one can be bothered to adjust them by the time I do, I don't really know what the fuss about them is anyway.
The Warden and HoS are having their winter jackets replaced. They will still have winter options available in both their loadouts and their dressers.
Sure. We could rename it to just "gold star" and move it to the trinkets section, make it accessible to all roles.
Sure. If you've got an adequately convincing reason why NanoTrasen would happen to stock "security-clown masks" in its vendors and restock boxes, I'd be willing to hear it out.
As mentioned previously regarding "the reason is funny and only funny" I don't think this is adequate to keep the security star as it is. That being said, I wouldn't mind moving it to the Trinkets category and having it be accessible to all roles.
The main removal here is the removal of the senior officer jumpskirt, which happens to be accompanied by a resprite of the senior officer jumpsuit. As mentioned previously, the senior officer uniform will be a "true jumpsuit".
Much like you said, it doesn't make sense for the detective to have such items stocked in their drobe. Even beyond that, having highly curated and quality content is the ideal over variety leading to disparity, anachronism, and incongruence.
It's a nice idea, but ultimately we're not looking to start normalising any more anachronistic tropes as seen in spaghetti westerns and the like. Also, this smells like another license to validhunt.
True points indeed, and completely valid if the detective weren't a part of security - but they are, and the noir gear doesn't fit. Maybe we'll see a return of some of the noir characteristics if they're removed from security.
"Recognisable as a detective" isn't a major priority. Everyone who needs to know who the detective is (security, mostly) will already know who the detective is. And the only thing changing about the detective is their clothes, if they're a renamed secoff now it's because they always were. |
|
Thanks for taking the time to reply to that all :). I think I'm pretty convinced by what you've said now, so I'd have no (major) complaints if this were merged. Regarding the clown mask, I think my favorite head canon that I've had for it is that NanoTrasen tried an unsuccessful program where clowns were made part of security to reduce the negative stigma of how security looks. It failed horribly (obviously) and the equipment from it was disabled in the vend. |
|
I still don't like a majority of the changes. I think taking away the winter boots just because you wanna resprite them is a bit unnecessary, I think removing the senior officer jumpskirt for a "true jumpsuit" is unnecessary, and just. All the other stuff. I feel like you're restricting some player freedom here, and it doesn't make me feel very hopeful. |
|
Just giving my two cents as a community member here. Adjusting content to be more realistic in some regards is not a bad idea, but I think a lot of players may be blindsided by these changed and not understand the intentions behind them. Barring that, many players may not be satisfied with the justification of realism for removing what they perceive as expressive choices for their characters. I'm honestly a bit surprised that the established position is to remove the anachronistic aspects of the detective. Not because it's a terrible idea, but because this is the first I've heard of that conclusion as a community member, and it already seems so set in stone. It might be a nice thing to bring up and at least get wider feedback on. As for the removal of the senior officer jumpskirt, the logic that the new jumpsuit is a "true jumpsuit" seems reasonable to me, but I still worry that no matter the basis in realism, players will still feel restricted. At the end of the day, it is still a video game. I know the argument being made here is not only for realism, but I predict that's how it could come off to players. tl;dr I don't disagree with the logic but as a community member these changes did/will surprise me a bit |
|
Out here wasting my damn Thursday afternoon
Server identity, intended direction, balance, other reasons. Use your imagination.
Okay, hate to be the one to break it to you, but the way the loadouts are right now happen to be broken. If you want WizDen's loadouts, sprites, and items, I hear they have several game servers you could try. If you want Delta-V loadouts, sprites and items, well, they're here.
Long time ago, we removed the upstream armour in favour of specialised body armours. They were readded to Delta-V in loadouts by mistake, due to an oversight when originally porting the loadout system. The fact that they haven't been removed already is kinda crazy.
Actually, there's a few more than eight, and you're welcome to that opinion.
No, the detective will be receiving a unique jumpsuit and will have the rest of their important gear.
Yes, but it wasn't reverted for that reason only. And it's true that some people hate this PR. I've been doing and am continuing to do my best to address valid criticism and complaints where they arise, but unfortunately my role isn't the thankless job of making everybody happy, it's the thankless job of directing Delta-V's content. Well, technically I only have to do one half of that job anyways.
See previous.
"We need to trim down our loadouts" isn't the rationale behind the majority of the removals. As for the escapism, I can understand that some people just want mindless fun. Unfortunately, that's not really the direction for Delta-V, as we are moving towards solidifying the server as a medium-roleplay space, but there are definitely other places you can go to for looser content direction and the like.
As stated previously, will address this on a case-by-case basis.
Briefly addressed this earlier, let me elaborate.
Already addressed.
See my answer in response to "I'm happy with the loadouts right now". |
|
As for you, Timemaster.
Unfortunately I don't have a roadmap on hand I can just drop in announcements for the community. Yet. That'll come after we get some curators in.
True. And it will be done, again, when we get some curators in to work on a roadmap and something worth presenting to the community. I understand that you'd like more communication, and that it would be helpful for the community to receive information about our plans. I've done my best to address valid concerns where I've seen them here on GitHub, and provided more concessions than I usually would expressly because of the lack of communication that you spoke of. It is something we'll be working on when we get curators, but until then these are just how the beans are cooked. @adeinitas boots and skort a-okay. |
There was a problem hiding this comment.
Looks fine. Are we all on the same page now regarding this PR and can I merge this? I'll make the noir detective stuff accessible somehow in a seperate PR if that helps anyone, so that we will still have the option. I'll even resprite it to look better if needed.
These arguments actually win me over to removing the Security star, and moving the noir gear from the Detective's drobe, and it also brings me to another idea. I think the hard-boiled PI look might go well with the reporter, as they're a non-security role, and I think them being an investigator could be a neat sub-class of their normal reporting roles. I've always liked the idea of having Gonzo Journalists on the station, and I think this gets kind of close. |
|
Fine, ignore our feedback, but this PR completely neuters everything I like about security. I and many others will likely not play security on delta if this is merged, just because you feel the current state of security loadout doesn't fit the server theme, which I utterly disagree with. When this was tried many months ago, it killed the server for me until the security changes were reverted back, and I urge you to make a public poll and discussion in announcements to see if it's truly what the players want. I hate and despise this direction delta is taking where you just seem to not give any shits about how the players feel and ignore them because "it doesn't fit deltas vision", players make up a server and if the majority of the player base doesn't like it, as it seems very clear from the comments on this PR, maybe don't fucking merge it and go back to the drawing board? The wizden armors for security are NOT overpowered, they are fine. Security is still melted in combat by nukies who can actually aim, let alone the fact security is usually wearing the delta v hardsuits on nukies, which if I recall are even better then the upstream armored vest. You wanna know how effective the wizden armored vest is? It makes a security player able to tank like two more melee swings depending, and about 2-3 more bullets of .35 ammo. The fact security would have to choose being strong against melee, or strong against guns is asinine, security should be able to respond to most threats without having to go back to security and change their armor. I feel like this got kind of ranty, but I've made my points. |
...ces/Textures/DeltaV/Clothing/Uniforms/Jumpskirt/seniorofficer.rsi/equipped-INNERCLOTHING.png
Outdated
Show resolved
Hide resolved
|
Forgot to write comments. If you cant have silliness in a department in this inherently silly game. I don't think this is the game or server for you to work on. |
|
As someone with a good deal of security playtime, I can't agree with these changes. To me, this is removing a lot of the personality that security has at the moment, and I think trying to make security more serious and professional is absolutely not going to be a positive. Most of all, I think that trying to remove the silly elements of security that many people enjoy is going to affect both the kind of people who play security as well as how much the crew trusts security in a negative way. I'm going to have a much easier time trusting someone to be reasonable if they outwardly have a little whimsy. Additionally, from a personal perspective, I think that security should be letting things funny things slide from time to time, should it improve the round for everyone--nobody likes the fun police, and trying to make security more serious is not going to help sec players have that mentality of "I should let people have their fun sometimes". As for the changes I can agree with:
|
heres your "for some reason" space-wizards/space-station-14#26487 its because it was simply an inconvenience to have them split apart |
Sure, it'd fit them better both stylistically and as part of their role. I think they used to get some detective gear in their repdrobe, but not sure.
Welp.
I think perhaps you fail to understand the core reason why the role I fill exists.
This is actually meaningful feedback that can be addressed... but probably in another PR. Raising it as a grievance here does very little, I suggest raising the issue either to direction on Discord or on the GitHub for discussion.
I've already received several opinions here, the majority of which were unhelpful and along the lines of "I don't like this change, don't merge it"; as for the questions and feedback, I've done my best to address them here. As I previously stated, we'll be releasing a rough roadmap when we flesh out our curator team, and we'll provide our basic rationale. While I may be obliged to provide rationale to the general playerbase for any direction changes, there's a point at which I get tired of repeating the same points and acknowledging that people hate changes that will go through anyway. So I'm not particularly inclined to extend this any further.
Hey, if it's LRP you're pandering for, there's a dozen servers out there with what you want. Otherwise, I suggest you pipe down about keeping memes and silliness for its own sake, and start letting us work on building a more serious environment.
Going to be completely honest with you, I'd take hardass over "fun" any day of the week. I've seen officers, wardens, and even heads of security act in the most rank and inappropriate manner because it was "funny". In my own experience, the more serious and professional officers are the ones least likely to: a) violate server rules, b) violate in-game policy, c) just be a generally shitty clown with security equipment. As for the personality, I'm not exactly sure what you're communicating here, but I will say that we're not keeping things to preserve the "quirkiness" of departments - or, if we ever do, it won't be purely for that reason.
Duly noted, that'll make it easier to revert if it comes to it. @adeinitas sorry I keep discarding your reviews. I fixed up the comments, it's all set. For real this time. |
There was a problem hiding this comment.
A bird just crashed into my window and I'm full of adrenaline, so here's my take on everything. (I've edited this since.)
TJ there's nothing to review. You changed nothing, you did not 'fix up the comments,' you have committed nothing since the last time I Iooked at this. Therefore, my review is the same except for what I'm going to put here as an option since you guys were talkin' of it- it is fine technically, really. I think the reporter is underappreciated and could use the clothes the det had.
I can't win if I close this due to community pressure. TJ and the directors won't like that -
and I can't win if I approve it either, because the entire community, including admins, will cannibalize me for this unpopular net removal of security content like they did last time I approved a similar PR a number of months ago. I'm tired of this. Don't call me for review, call Fox instead or some other maint, I am burnt out the discussion on this PR that is technically fine but is one that people do not like.
Signed-off-by: Tad "Taddy" Johnson <[email protected]>
|
I know this PR is basically closed and done but regarding the Noir Detective gear being anachronistic, I have a "so what?" opinion about it. There's probably a dozen costumes in the game like that. Off the top of my head I can name the Hatsune Miku outfit, Shrine Maiden outfit, gladiator armor, plague doctor outfit... I could go on. I don't really see removing these outfits as moving towards a more serious roleplay environment, to me it just removes individuality and creativity. The detective is a distinct role and deserves a unique appearance to compliment that. They are essentially the third in command of security, given that they are one of three roles to have access to lethal weapons at round start via their inspector, another anachronistic item that compliments the noir detective appearance. |
|
I've already briefly discussed the nature of the detective's position and unique clothing. With regards to the detective being the "third in command of security", security technically answers to neither of the specialists - corpsman or detective - but instead, the whole security department (with the notable exception of cadets, to answer to any security member) answers directly to the head of security. Every role, except for cadets, receives lethal ammunition. As for the Inspector, there is an argument that it is an anachronistic weapon. But, that being said, a revolver is actually uniquely suited to a detective or forensic specialist's role; as a firearm feeding from an internal rotating cylinder rather than a stick magazine, it does not automatically expel spent casings as it fires and instead retains them. In other words, the revolver doesn't leave spent brass everywhere and makes it easier to analyse and clean up crimescenes. I'm personally of the opinion that the retention of the Inspector is valid. |
|
You've only said that the detective's existing loadout was anachronistic and "didnt fit", you didn't really comment on that there are several other outfits that are also anachronistic but we don't see any problems with them. Detective being easily recognizable isn't just for convenience, it's a gameplay mechanic for syndies, as they are one of three Security roles with lethal ammunition at round start and there used to be objectives for stealing things from the detective (engraved zippo, for example). Security Officers & Senior Officers don't start with lethal ammo, they start with a Mk18 with rubber bullets. From personal experience, Detective is more likely to be promoted to Warden / HoS during short-staffed rounds which is why I referred to them as third in command, as well as their round start lethal ammo. Not dropping casings at a crime scene seems like pretty thin justification for why the inspector is getting special treatment when every other security officer involved in the shootout is littering the hallways with spent casings. The inspector also still drops the casings if the user has to reload. I understand wanting to push for a more serious or more defined roleplay environment but removing unique costumes isn't doing that, it's stripping away individuality and creativity in a video game that is supposed to be fun. |
I feel I should mention that only cadets don't get lethals now. All of sec starts off with 1 lethal mage in their rig and 1 rubber mag in the gun |
When was that change merged? |
I wanna say a week or two ago at this point |
ghost
merged commit 
About the PR
Add warden and HoS alternate uniforms to their loadouts.
Add adv. plate carriers to warden and HoS lockers.
Remove some jumpsuits from HoS loadout and dresser.
Replace HoS and warden outerwear with Delta-V equivalents in their loadouts, lockers, dressers.
Replace corpsman survival box with standard security survival box.
Add spare empty webbing to corpsman locker.
Comment out corpsman glasses pending discussion.
Add spare headsets to det and corpsman lockers.
Replace detective head, neck, and outer options with security standard in their loadout.
Remove wizden clothing items from detective's locker and drobe.
Add detective clothing items to drobe along with forensic pads and other new paraphernalia.
Remove wizden armour from security loadouts.
Replace wizden security coat with Delta-V version in security loadouts.
Remove security star from loadouts.
Remove spare jumpsuits from security lockers.
Add senior jumpskort. Yes that's spelled correctly. Don't ask me to explain.
Adjust item weights in security lockers.
Adjust secdrobe catalog.
Why / Balance
Direction and content incongruence.
Technical details
Lots of YAML.
Media
...the rest is pretty much as it appears in code.
Requirements
Breaking changes
Changelog
🆑