Modify antagAdvantage values. #804

stellar-novas · 2024-02-09T05:04:24Z

About the PR

Reduced or removed antagAdvantage values for several roles.

Why / Balance

For several roles, antagAdvantage is too high as their job advantages either aren't actually used, or are not true advantages.

More details, originally posted on Discord, https://discord.com/channels/968983104247185448/1150555473699934370/1205366269851996250.

So, going through the list Psionic Mantis has an advantage of 5. No other epi role has an antag, the special things the mantis gets are - psi knife - 10 slash 5 holy, sure, but afaik you don't take holy if you aren't "evil" so it's only 10 slash, and you have a 30% chance to electrocute yourself on every attack if the target isn't psionic, making it useless in most pvp fights - psibreaker gun - it comes with mindbreaker rounds, which deal 3 blunt and inject mindbreaker toxin. Getting lethal rounds from sec feels about as easy as just getting a whole gun. - permission to mindbreak, and potentially slip in other drugs too? - this feels moot, since doctors also have this and they have no advantage

Cargo tech has an advantage of 2, with the comment saying it's cause externals access.
This is completely moot since techs don't have externals. Mats and autolathe (free tools) is pretty good, but it's not great and I think the full 20tc is deserved.

Salv tech has an advantage of 3, "External Access + Free hardsuit and weapons". The salvage weapons aren't ideal for pvp imo, I don't think externals is much of an advantage, I don't remember any cases of ex. a body being hidden in space, however, the weapons and similar contraband they can get definitely are. Maybe reduce to 2 advantage?

Lawyer, advantage of 2, "Security Radio and Access", having many more opportunities to steal sec stuff is pretty fair, and sec comms is very helpful.

Service worker, advantage of 1, "access", they just get service, and no other service role has an advantage, they should get 20tc. Seems to be a hold over from nyano.

Station engineer/Tech assistant, advantage of 3, "External Access + Engineering", you're trusted in a lot of higher security areas now, like substations, which imo is the main advantage, as tools are fairly easy to acquire, barring insuls and engi goggles. Maybe drop it to 2 instead?

Atmos tech, advantage of 10. "External Access + Fireaxe + Free Hardsuit", this is definetly too high, the axe's only purpose is as a weapon now, since any engineer can space floors, and the axe doesn't anymore. The only thing you gain from atmos access is maybe being able to do atmos sabotage, but that is disallowed since that generally affects large parts of the station. Your other advantages, such as being trusted some high security areas, are shared with the other engi roles. The advantage should be 2/3/4, I'm leaning towards 3.

Paramedic, advantage of 2, "External Access", I've said that I don't think it is worth the tc reduction, and whatever it is, it should definetly be lower than salv. Didn't realise they had the handheld monitor still, advantage of 1 for that.

- [ x ] I have added screenshots/videos to this PR showcasing its changes ingame, **or** this PR does not require an ingame showcase

Breaking changes

Changelog

🆑

tweak: Modified or removed TC penalty for several roles.

Resources/Prototypes/Roles/Jobs/Cargo/salvage_specialist.yml

Haltell · 2024-02-09T05:58:52Z

I'd also recommend adding an advantage to chemists. They're able to make as many toxins, sleeping agents, and whatever else they need to complete their objectives.

stellar-novas · 2024-02-09T06:06:22Z

Thoughts on what their advantage should be? 1?

JoeHammad1844 · 2024-02-09T06:31:33Z

what is antag advantage? im not familiar, and how much TC do they have

deltanedas · 2024-02-09T07:13:57Z

more advantage = less tc

Guess-My-Name · 2024-02-09T07:37:24Z

There are many roles where it doesn't make sense why they have less TC than others, if you're making a PR like that, you could go through all roles, although I'm certain that almost every player would have a slightly different opinion on some jobs.
Currently missing lawyer (which starts with 18) and service worker (which starts with 19) in this PR. Looking at your changes, seems like those 2 mentioned should have their penalty removed, especially if engineers and salvagers get 18 to start.

DebugOk · 2024-02-09T10:44:39Z

Not to be merged without at least my and Gregg's approval

DangerRevolution · 2024-02-09T11:12:57Z

Salvage, Lawyer and Chemist are unironically the only roles who should lose TC, as they're the only people who have anything of any advantage.
Lawyer (Security access, most HoS' won't hire midround due to metagaming)
Salvage (A weapon license on round start)
Chemist (The machines to make toxins, which you can't easily acquire elsewhere and CMO's don't hire midround)

JoeHammad1844 · 2024-02-09T11:37:30Z

all tots should start with 20TC IMO

stellar-novas · 2024-02-09T16:14:41Z

Marked as draft as I'm still working on values, and looking for feedback.

I am struggling to decide if Salvage Tech should have 3 or 4 advantage, I might play a few rounds to see how good the loot is.

I'm set on Atmos access being worth 1, I can't decide if normal engineering should be 2 or 3. The main advantage of being an engineer is the trust of sec and the rest of the crew to mess around with a lot of things, and not be questioned. Quantifying that is hard, though.

I'm going to add a 2 advantage to chemist after it was brought up, please bring up other roles that should have it, and don't.

I have been thinking of making a separate PR adding either heartbreaker or lethal magazines as a job specific mantis uplink item. If it goes through, the mantis will get an advantage again, as the gun could practically be used to kill someone. I think 2TC could be a good value, as you still need to buy ammo.

Lawyer could be reduced to 1, security officers are in sec enough that it would be difficult to steal anything, meaning their only practical advantage is security comms.

stellar-novas · 2024-02-09T18:06:29Z

After discussion here and on discord https://discord.com/channels/968983104247185448/1150555473699934370/1205557011052240996, values have been modified and antagAdvantage has been added to chemist.

The Mantis was re-given a 2 advantage pending me adding alternative psi-breaker ammo to the uplink.

misandrie · 2024-02-10T01:10:51Z

all tots should start with 20TC IMO

Delta-V is not top-down hl2dm, as such LO/HoP can be antagonists but are penalized in starting TC to account for their innate advantages. Some roles (salv, atmos) can benefit from traitor gear way more than any other role could, etc.

stellar-novas · 2024-02-10T01:17:15Z

as such LO/HoP can be antagonists

This is not true, the following roles have canBeAntag: false:

prisonguard.yml
prisoner.yml
gladiator.yml
emergencyresponseteam.yml
chief_engineer.yml
captain.yml
centcom_official.yml
head_of_personnel.yml
warden.yml
head_of_security.yml
detective.yml
senior_officer.yml
security_cadet.yml
security_officer.yml
research_director.yml
borg.yml
visitor.yml
quartermaster.yml
chief_medical_officer.yml
medical_borg.yml
brigmedic.yml

misandrie · 2024-02-10T01:20:53Z

This is not true

I selftrolled myself by assuming they do by just checking antagAdvantage, which HoP/LO do have. Pardon

stellar-novas · 2024-02-10T01:37:50Z

Yeah they're antags upstream, where they obv would need to have an advantage.

DangerRevolution · 2024-02-10T02:19:47Z

why's visitor set to false? I know it's not a roundstart role but still.

stellar-novas · 2024-02-10T02:43:09Z

It's mainly for admin events, here's the PR space-wizards/space-station-14#23972

JoeHammad1844 · 2024-02-10T05:10:25Z

This is not true, the following roles have canBeAntag: false:

i think it would be cool if prisoners could be traitors and have extra TC

stellar-novas · 2024-02-10T05:49:15Z

I disagree, and who should/shouldn't be traitor isn't part of this pr anyway.

DangerRevolution · 2024-02-10T07:31:45Z

It's mainly for admin events, here's the PR space-wizards/space-station-14#23972

Completely unrelated but Loadouts could make visitor the best rp rolee

DangerRevolution · 2024-02-10T07:32:33Z

This is not true, the following roles have canBeAntag: false:

i think it would be cool if prisoners could be traitors and have extra TC

A) not for this PR
B) current consensus is on prisoners having NO TC

JoeHammad1844 · 2024-02-10T09:48:57Z

This is not true, the following roles have canBeAntag: false:

i think it would be cool if prisoners could be traitors and have extra TC

A) not for this PR B) current consensus is on prisoners having NO TC

okay, true, prisoner emagging out of sec or buying a c20r/enforcer roundstart bad

stellar-novas · 2024-03-26T14:23:08Z

Coming back to this

Resources/Prototypes/Nyanotrasen/Roles/Jobs/Epistemics/forensicmantis.yml

DangerRevolution · 2024-03-26T16:00:03Z

Resources/Prototypes/Roles/Jobs/Cargo/cargo_technician.yml

@@ -3,7 +3,7 @@
  name: job-name-cargotech
  description: job-description-cargotech
  playTimeTracker: JobCargoTechnician
-  antagAdvantage: 2 # DeltaV - Reduced TC: External Access
+  antagAdvantage: 2 # DeltaV - Reduced TC: Cargo Access


How is Cargo Access beneficial? I see it on lowpop maybe, otherwise I don't get the advantage in having Cargo Access.

yeah cargo techs cant buy things alone anymore (outside of lowpop ofc)

I forgor to reduce the cargo advantage

The argument was because they could smuggle stuff out semi-easily, I removed it all together in a first draft

DangerRevolution · 2024-03-26T16:00:24Z

Resources/Prototypes/Roles/Jobs/Cargo/salvage_specialist.yml

@@ -3,7 +3,7 @@
  name: job-name-salvagespec
  description: job-description-salvagespec
  playTimeTracker: JobSalvageSpecialist
-  antagAdvantage: 3 # DeltaV - Reduced TC: External Access + Free hardsuit and weapons
+  antagAdvantage: 3 # DeltaV - Reduced TC: Free hardsuit and weapons


Salv weapons + wreck loot + potential of getting weapons from logi though that doesn't happen much now

DangerRevolution · 2024-03-26T16:01:08Z

Resources/Prototypes/Roles/Jobs/Civilian/service_worker.yml

@@ -10,7 +10,6 @@
  icon: "JobIconServiceWorker"
  supervisors: job-supervisors-service
  canBeAntag: true # DeltaV - Can be antagonist
-  antagAdvantage: 1 # DeltaV - Reduced TC: Accesses


#antagAdvantage: 1 # DeltaV - Removes antagAdvantage

Not our prototype, we shouldn't be removing lines :O

Oh yea, I will fix this when I'm home

DangerRevolution · 2024-03-26T16:01:42Z

Resources/Prototypes/Roles/Jobs/Engineering/atmospheric_technician.yml

@@ -3,7 +3,7 @@
  name: job-name-atmostech
  description: job-description-atmostech
  playTimeTracker: JobAtmosphericTechnician
-  antagAdvantage: 10 # DeltaV - Reduced TC: External Access + Fireaxe + Free Hardsuit
+  antagAdvantage: 2 # DeltaV - Reduced TC: Free Firesuit + Engineering + Atmospherics


There's firesuits in fire lockers + you're not allowed to plasma flood so Atmos access isn't too useful, aside from being a generally isolated area.

Aera thought the potential to do stuff with nitrous and such, and the better(? I think) fire suit automatically was enough for 1tc more

DangerRevolution · 2024-03-26T16:02:08Z

Resources/Prototypes/Roles/Jobs/Engineering/station_engineer.yml

@@ -3,7 +3,7 @@
  name: job-name-engineer
  description: job-description-engineer
  playTimeTracker: JobStationEngineer
-  antagAdvantage: 3 # DeltaV - Reduced TC: External Access + Engineering
+  antagAdvantage: 1 # DeltaV - Reduced TC: Engineering


Why is Engineering Access an advantage, and why is it less of an advantage than Cargo?

Easy access to tools and insuls, this one was very contentious, as people thought it mattered more/less.
Also easy sabotage of engineering systems, like comms on the maps that they're in engi, as well as power.

And cargo was meant to match engi, I forgor as I said

DangerRevolution · 2024-03-26T16:02:32Z

Resources/Prototypes/Roles/Jobs/Engineering/technical_assistant.yml

@@ -3,7 +3,7 @@
  name: job-name-technical-assistant
  description: job-description-technical-assistant
  playTimeTracker: JobTechnicalAssistant
-  antagAdvantage: 3 # DeltaV - Reduced TC: External Access + Engineering
+  antagAdvantage: 1 # DeltaV - Reduced TC: Engineering


Refer to the point about Engineers + new players being given less TC

Same thing, and why give the noob roles less TC? They have the same access

DangerRevolution · 2024-03-26T16:02:46Z

Resources/Prototypes/Roles/Jobs/Medical/paramedic.yml

@@ -3,7 +3,7 @@
  name: job-name-paramedic
  description: job-description-paramedic
  playTimeTracker: JobParamedic
-  antagAdvantage: 2 # DeltaV - Reduced TC: External Access
+  antagAdvantage: 1 # DeltaV - Reduced TC: Handheld crew monitor


Magic track anyone device on your person from shift start is good, consensus was it was worth an advantage of 1.

Resources/Prototypes/Roles/Jobs/Medical/chemist.yml

…cmantis.yml Co-authored-by: Danger Revolution! <[email protected]> Signed-off-by: stellar-novas <[email protected]>

github-actions · 2024-03-27T12:26:18Z

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github-actions · 2024-03-27T15:36:13Z

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Signed-off-by: stellar-novas <[email protected]>

stellar-novas requested a review from DebugOk as a code owner February 9, 2024 05:04

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stellar-novas force-pushed the advantage-changes branch from 479bb0d to 1c5f5f8 Compare February 9, 2024 19:04

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stellar-novas reopened this Mar 26, 2024

stellar-novas added 2 commits March 26, 2024 10:47

Modify antagAdvantage values.

3cb7749

Add antagAdvantage to chemist and modify other role's values.

31829f5

stellar-novas force-pushed the advantage-changes branch from 1c5f5f8 to 31829f5 Compare March 26, 2024 14:47

stellar-novas added 2 commits March 26, 2024 10:54

Add antagAdvantage for mail carrier

3eaf693

Remove mantis antagAdvantage

9b342cd

stellar-novas marked this pull request as ready for review March 26, 2024 15:35

When the typo

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DangerRevolution reviewed Mar 26, 2024

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Update Resources/Prototypes/Nyanotrasen/Roles/Jobs/Epistemics/forensi…

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…cmantis.yml Co-authored-by: Danger Revolution! <[email protected]> Signed-off-by: stellar-novas <[email protected]>

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Merge branch 'master' into advantage-changes

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deltanedas mentioned this pull request Apr 29, 2024

reduce atmos antag advantage #1157

Closed

Modify antagAdvantage values. #804

Modify antagAdvantage values. #804

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stellar-novas commented Feb 9, 2024 • edited Loading

About the PR

Why / Balance

Breaking changes

Haltell commented Feb 9, 2024

stellar-novas commented Feb 9, 2024

JoeHammad1844 commented Feb 9, 2024

deltanedas commented Feb 9, 2024

Guess-My-Name commented Feb 9, 2024

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github-actions bot commented Mar 27, 2024

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stellar-novas commented Feb 9, 2024 •

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