Change: Add inherent hazard field cleanup abilities to GLA poison and China flame weapons #2049
Conversation
xezon
added
Design
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Great work! Looks very nice indeed, i like the setup |
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One thing to keep in mind though, giving toxin tunnels the ability to clear will also give toxin general a bigger advantage at clearing than other factions, kinda feels like we're back at square one here, i fear toxin general will still clear puddles too easily |
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Yes Toxin General will do well if there is a Toxin Tunnel nearby. It could also use the Toxin Rebel Ambush to clean toxins :-) We can scale hazard damage setup freely as we like, so no problem. |
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Yeah exactly, too many hazard cleaners, and tox tunnels are always spammed, should be toned down for toxgen in particular |
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Why would pouring more goo on a poison cloud clear it up? This makes no sense at all. |
Well it is in line with the design of the Ambulance. It also sprays some stuff on the toxins and then the hazard is cleaned. Perhaps there are some anti-contaminants inside the toxins that kill stale toxins? Or the new toxins are so potent that they kill the old ones. I am not sure if game design needs to be super realistic in this case when the machanic itself should be the deciding factor. I would argue that if Toxin weapons should not remove other toxins, then neither should the toxin puddles. And vice versa. Gameplay wise current setup is fair, because all factions can remove all hazards equally without discrimination.
Is it realistic that Toxins remove Radiations? Likely not. Is it even realistic that Radiations disappear after 30 seconds? I don't think so. If this game was realistic then Radiation should stay until the end of the match. If we start discriminating, like only Flames can kill Toxins and only radiation can kill toxins then perhaps that would be more realistic, but would that also be better for gameplay? |
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Follow up change for this would be to add a text to the affected units that their fire/toxin weapons can clean hazard fields. This way design would be communicated with player. Another possibility is to explore hazard field auto attack with select units, like the Ambulance does. This way it would also be communicated in an non textual way. |
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Realistically there are 3 routes to the problem. Here I try to compare them. Route 1: Keep the status quoAll hazard fields can be removed by placing any other hazard field on top. Anthrax Bomb can be removed with one Toxin Shell from the Scorpion Tank. Advantages
Disadvantages
Route 2: Redesign hazard cleanup health, damages and weapons (This)This change (and #2023) are taking Route 2. It is a compromise between Route 1 and Route 3. The original exploitative feel of the hazard field removal is redesigned to keep the mechanics of the hazard removal, expanding it and making it more difficult to exercise. Therefore there is a balance striked between it being easily possible to remove hazard fields and it being impossible to remove hazard fields (except USA Ambulance). Advantages
Disadvantages
Route 3: Remove exploit by allowing enemy hazard fields to stackEnemy weapons, except USA Ambulance, can no longer remove hazard fields. Only allied weapons can, to avoid hazard field stacks. Change #2023 is compatible with Route 3, as it would still prevent allies from removing their own large hazard field with a small one by mistake. Advantages
Disadvantages
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I updated the Patched hazard field cleanup setup table. It now shows hazard cleanup damage per 1000 ms. USA Ambulance is the clear leader. |
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So with this change force firing is the same as spraying for toxin weapons, which means toxin tunnels will be meta for clearing, adding to that rebels + all the other puddle creation weapons, I don't like this, it's too much, i think it's better to just use the sprayer, we don't need inherent weapons to clear toxins, it's too risky. And if we needed to, For the sake of equality, we can consider making dragon tanks only clear with firewalls and infernos and migs only with firewalls, but maybe that's not needed right now, i kidna think it's equilized with toxin already since they have toxin shells + tractors + toxin terrorists for toxgen |
Toxin General will still take longer to clear Anthrax than in Original. Toxin General starts with Toxin Shells, so one shot from Scorpion Tank would have cleared Anthrax Bomb. In Patch, it will take more time, even with Toxin Tunnels around. Therefore I do not agree with risk assessment. |
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Yes but it will still clear toxins faster than other generals in patch, perhaps much faster with all the clearing options he has available, which is an unfair advantage. We haven't tested, it might take much less time to clear it than you're anticipating |
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We can reduce it for Toxin Tunnel and Toxin Rebel. |
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Still think this is a bad, unrealistic and counter-intuitive change. I get it for Flame weapons (burns the chemicals, as in the lore), but why can toxin weapons clear toxin now? If GLA really needs a counter to puddles so badly, why not use #1113? It's a new ability either way, but at least it makes it explicit. |
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I agree with it being unrealistic. As for intuition, I think it is more intuitive than original, because
Judging from this angle, the added consistency makes it much easier to understand. In essence it should work all the way, or not at all. In other words all boxes should be either "yes" or "no", otherwise it is confusing and counter-intuitive. |
I agree, I just think it should just not work at all. |
That would be Route 3. I listed above the advantages and disadvantages of Route 2 (this) and Route 3. There is merit to both. To me it looks as if Route 3 has more disadvantages. |
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This one
applies to both. These:
don't apply if you keep vulnerability to flame weapons and a Toxin Tractor decontam ability. An explicit Toxin Tractor decontam ability would be balanced between GLA factions for the most part too, unlike giving Toxin Tunnels and half of all Toxgen units that ability for free. I also think it is easy to explain to experienced players: Puddle deletion bug was removed. To make Anthrax Bomb/Tractor Sprinkler not broken, use a Tractor like an Ambo as GLA, or a Dragon tank with force fire as China. This also balances the ability to clear puddles between the Chinese factions. Currently, only Nukegen can do it unless you could Nuke Cannons. |
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So basically I'm suggesting Route 4: Remove exploit by allowing enemy hazard fields to stack. Add poison puddle decontamination ability to Toxin Tractor and FLAME vulnerability to poison puddles to counter Anthrax Bombs. Which is
Disadvantage:
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FLAME vulnerability to poison puddles has 2 disadvantages
Hazard cleanup ability for Toxin Tractor has 1 disadvantage
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You can tweak the armor value of the puddles. I don't see the issue.
I mean, you could make radiation puddles vulnerable to FLAME too, but I don't think being able to clean up radiation puddles is necessary. The only one that one would maybe want to clean up is the one after a Nuclear Silo strike, all the other ones are probably gone before you can move in a vehicle and have a small radius. |
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Why didn't we make FLAME remove radiation? Toxin weapons and ambulance can remove it, no? |
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I like your idea commy, you're leaning towards having 1 puddle cleaner for each faction, but it's still missing something, china armies can still clean puddles with all of their flame weapons, it's not just the Dragon tank, and even though it might be beneficial for them, it's not a consistent design If we make it so that only ambo, toxin truck, dragon tank can clear toxin/radiation, I'm all for it, otherwise we go with the current route, which i still don't like due to toxin general being able to clean toxins with pretty much every unit, even demo trap Imo if we go with the current implementation, we just don't do the streaming part, I don't like it and I don't see the obligation to have it all or nothing, i think it's fine if you can only clear with sprinkler, we really don't need to clean with force firing, it's unintuitive and uncreative and it's bad for balance |
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I was giving FLAME vs Toxin some thought and I am ok with it. It means China cannot remove Radiation anymore, but on the other hand it gives them a large arsenal of weapons to remove Poison, which makes it an interesting concept. This means USA
GLA
China
Do we want this? |
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That would be a good feature to have regardless of this issue. |
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Ok so go Route 4b, remove Demo Tractor Suicide for now, re-add it later when possible. Can we also put Ambulance and Tractor hazard cleanup weapon on same slot so it can be used in group selection? |
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I wouldn't do that. They would have to use the same weapon slot, but that would change the Force Fire behaviour of these units, because the PRIMARY slot is used for that. Ambulance uses cleanup for force fire, Toxin Tractor uses its goo gun. In general, cross faction button compatibility is 100 times less important that inner faction compatibility. Unless you really really like Casino maps I guess. |
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Hmm. It would be nice if Tractor can also use force fire for the Hazard Cleanup. Perhaps put Sprinkler in TERTIARY and add a weapon toggle like for Ranger Machine Gun and Flash Bang? |
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Weapon toggle doesn't work well with units with TERTIARY weapons from memory, but can look into that. |
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I mean put Toxin Nozzle and Hazard Nozzle in PRIMARY and SECONDARY, and then have toggle button in Command Set. Then I think force fire would work for either. |
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There are names for many weapons primary This is retarded :D |
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You can just name them WEAPON_4, WEAPON_5 etc. |
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I would go with route 4a with flames being able to clean radiation, remove detonation button for now and re-add with thyme |
FeedbackI stopped replying to the subject since you guys were invested and dedicated to work on a solution I don't like much. Now it's still better than the original so that's why I accepted and ignored. But seeing commie’s feedback I’d like to speak up as well. So here’s my opinion: I never liked the entire idea of stack deletion, neither with a health system. I feel none of these units except the Ambulance should be able to clean up toxins, it doesn't make much sense either, Toxin Tractors, Toxin Rebels, Toxin Tunnels etc. they're all weapons of war, not cleaners. A health system isn’t very transparant for the player either, there’s no visual feedback whatsoever (like HP bars), so how is a new player supposed to discover how this all works? One isn’t likely to try and force fire a unit for like 10 seconds in attempt to clear Anthrax. And how will it be described ingame? My proposalMy take to balance everything would be to only keep the Ambulance's cleaning ability, but nerf it so that Anthrax Bombs can’t be cleared at an instant. The result should be that low armored units like Humvees can’t be saved from a direct hit. Secondly, nerf the Anthrax Bomb's duration and/or potentially it’s damage. Now It will both a buff and nerf for GLA but I don't think there are any red flags when it comes to balance. In GLA mirrors Anthrax bombs aren't even that deadly when used on the production, it just denies low HP unit production, other units can be saved into tunnels. A good hit in the open should simply be deadly and the only counter should be a dodge. For China I do like the idea of flamewall clean ups though, also for balance reasons, but it has to be intuitive, well-described and preferably have clear visual feedback. Like it would be really awesome if the fire spreads over the entire Anthrax field before disappearing, the same sort of effect you have when burning down trees. |
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Well for gla there will be visual feedback since we're literally adding a decontamination ability :D |
I don't like it. GLA doesn't need it either. GLA mirror late game would be more exciting if the Anthrax Bomb had more potential to actually "swing" games. |
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Stealth General is quite screwed when Anthrax Bomb falls on Production sites. Infantry General too. Perhaps add a new unit upgrade to Toxin Tractor that will change its weapons to hazard cleanup stream and hazard cleanup sprinkler permanently. So it sort of becomes a different unit upon choice. |
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Quads are savable anyway, the player just needs to make sure to make his tunnel close to the Arms Dealer. |
Well that would be the most extreme approach yet, a big change that we're trying to avoid, players would expect to be able to clean puddles, removing that ability will have huge impact on balance Having a counter system is nice in game design, and is necessary in this situation where you have impactful weapons such as the A-Bomb |
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What I like about the hazard cleanup is that it makes the game richer in functionality. Taking it away can make player feel helpless and not in control of the outcome. |
It's how it was supposed to be, now it's a pointless level 5(!) genpower.
Not every faction needs cleanup, not every single power needs a direct counter either. You can counter the plane already anyway. |
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Xezon actually tweaked puddle damages nicely, it takes around 13 seconds to get cleaned, a lot of damage is done by then, it's not pointless |
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Puddle health and cleanup damages can be adjusted to our liking. If cleanup is too fast or slow -> tweak. |
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Puddles could be changed such that they display flame particles upon deletion or while taking FLAME damage. |
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Also with that approach you're not removing puddle cleaning entirely, you still have the ambulance, which will make it quite unfair that only one faction can clear puddles, if we take your approach we should remove ambulance cleaning as well, otherwise it doesn't make sense, it's either they all have this ability or no one does |
I already left my detailed feedback regarding that. I simply prefer the game to be more like it was suppossed to be (more realistic). Plus it's obvious the Anthrax bomb was never intended to be counterable by so many different units/weapons. Again, the plane itself is already counterable. |
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And what about radiation, every faction needs a radiation cleaner unit aswell now? |
It clearly was intended to be countered by the ambulance though
USA and GLA and all chinas¹ (exept Tank) can already clean radiation, it's just after removing puddle deletion china will no longer be able clean radiation unless we add it to the dragon tank. ¹ ChinaV, Infantry have Nuke Cannons, China nuke have BMs, Overlords, Nuke MiGs and Nuke Cannons, China tank has none. |
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China Tank can clean Radiation and Poison with Nuke Missile and Reactor death. It is not very practical though. |
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China Tank can also suicide Nuclear Tank BMs and Emperors. |
i did not consider them because those are not actually cleaning units, it's more like a suicide if anytihng, not to mention how long it takes for an overloaded reactor to die, or the fact that you can't kill it or the nuke with units since there is already a cloud. so no. |
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Not all my replies are to be taken seriously, even if the tone is very dry. Sorry :D |
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ik, the response wasn't meant for you, but yeah i like to be overcritical :P |
Merge with Rebase
This change adds inherent hazard field cleanup abilities to all GLA poison and China flame weapons. This affects
Patched hazard field cleanup setup
(*1) The Fire Wall hazard damage will stack on top of flame thrower damage, because the Dragon Tank fire wall ability has 2 weapons.
(*2) The Fire Storm hazard damage stacks on top of fire field damage. So 3 shell hits with 500 hazard damage each + fire storm with 3000 hazard damage.
Toxin stream vs Anthrax Bomb field (Anthrax Beta damage)
2 Toxin Tractors can cleanup the Anthrax Bomb effortlessly. Toxin Tractor is immune to Poison and Radiation.
generals.2023-06-28.19-25-38-36_TRACTOR_STREAM.mp4
Flame thrower vs Anthrax Bomb field (Anthrax Beta damage)
2 Dragon Tanks can cleanup the Anthrax Bomb when well positioned. They do take poison damage.
generals.2023-06-28.19-27-43-08_FLAME_THROWER.mp4
Fire wall vs Anthrax Bomb field (Anthrax Beta damage)
2 Dragon Tanks can cleanup the Anthrax Bomb when well positioned. They do take poison damage.
generals.2023-06-28.19-29-14-64_FIREWALL.mp4
Fire storm vs Anthrax Bomb field (Anthrax Beta damage)
2 Fire Storms with 4 Inferno Cannons clean up the Anthrax Bomb.
generals.2023-06-28.19-31-01-09_FIRE_STORM.mp4
Rationale
The new hazard field cleanup setup gives all China and GLA factions the ability to cleanup hazards reliably with various weapons. Originally only radiation and poison fields could do cleanups and it was counter-intuitive that some poison weapons, such as Toxin Tractor streams, did not cleanup hazard fields, while Toxin Shells from Scorpion Tanks did.
China greatly profits from hazard field cleanups with flame weapons due their availability. Originally only Nuke Battle Masters, Nuke Cannons, Nuke missiles and destroyed Nuke Reactors and destroyed Nuke Silos could cleanup hazard fields.
USA only has the Ambulance for hazard cleanups, however it is the superior cleaner, because it cleans the fastest, is immune to toxin and radiation and is easily available at any stage of a match.
This change makes it much more intuitive to perform hazard field cleanups with the various factions, while at the same time the hazard fields pose a greater threat due their durability.
Overall China benefits most from the hazard cleanup design changes, because although it will be challenging to cleanup, it no longer is unpractical to do so.